Just a bit of food for thought…
While I’m writing this article I’m thinking what’s the best thing to do?
Maybe you’ll help me on this one:
If you were to catch a looter on your property trying to pillage your house, should you scare him off or should you shoot him dead?
On one hand I’m a religious person so I don’t want to shoot anyone unless I really have to, but on the other hand I’m thinking that if I let him go he’ll probably rob (or kill) the next family he’ll find. Or worse, he’ll come back later with his gang and try to gun down my family.
Holding him at gunpoint until the cops arrive is NOT an option. There won’t be 911 when SHTF.
Another option would be to spare his life but keep him confined until the crisis ends. Probably you’ll go to heaven for this, but it would mean sharing your food and water with him, while endangering your family at the same time.
Man… how I would love to see a row of preppers turning in looters at the police station at the end of a crisis. Like for example at the end of the Baltimore riots…
But things are not always black and white.
The people that you see as looters might actually be a couple of dads scavenging for their hungry kids.
Just imagine 10 days of a catastrophic blackout across the US. No cell phone service, no ATM withdrawals, no electricity whatsoever, no cars or gasoline, no water pumps … no escape!!! … just trapped at home. (Click here if you want to watch the video – Blackout USA)
And two strangers come scavenging on your property, 40 feet away from your door. They have a dog and one of them is carrying a rifle. It’s evening and night’s about to fall down. You don’ t know their intentions. Maybe they don’t want to rob anybody. The rifle can be for their protection and the dog to smell for garbage food. Or maybe not!
What do you do?
What are your thoughts? What’s the best thing to do in this situation?
Please share this post so we can get as many answers as possible.
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If you love your family, I say: shoot them!
Do you love your family more than you love God? Maybe you shoot two innocent people.
If they are on my property during a crisis without any warning that they are there, they are not innocent, they ARE trespassing and my property IS appropriately marked. They will a “casualty” of the situation and I’ll be firing up the backhoe.
You better use a lot of lime too.
Well, to quote one of my favorite characters, Rip Walker. “I took em to the train station, and that train only runs one way”.
If my dog is still around he’s going to be barking if they continue to come they’re looking for trouble and I’ll have to defend myself if my dog is not around I’ll rack a round in my shotgun. But I guess it depends on how bad things have gotten
I generally have a ability to desern bad people. That would afect my disission. Feed the good hungry helpless and hopeless. Thats just me
I believe you never know what you will do until you are in that particular situation.
I like to think people are good. I also know my family is first always.
If you make it to my house on my property you really had to work for it.
This would mean you were either friend, family, or foe.
The choice is easy.
MY friends are also my family.
They would help bury OUR foe.
Or maybe they shoot you.
I like Texas Fred’s response!
Trust no-one in that situation, I’ve prepared, they should have also. I buy 2 cans of food (corn, beans, dry beans) to put in a box each time I go in a store. Turn your back and you could die
It is not self defense if there is no aggression or threat. it is murder. It might be a good idea to order them, from cover, to lay down the rifle, face the opposite way and spread eagle. Interrogate them. Do they have any other weapons? Why are they here. If they live nearby and trying to find resources, which is probable. Disarm them, unload the rifle, keep the ammo, give them back the rifle and release them with a stern warning. Give them water and what ever you can spare for a meal. I would tell them all I want to see is their backs as they leave. no looking or turning around. I will have my perimeter set, so two guys and a dog are not a serious threat. I won’t take any human life that is not a viable threat and I will treat others the way I would expect to be treated if the situation were reversed.
In shtf,ALL BETS ARE OFF
Be polite, be professional but be prepared to kill anyone you meet. Only the very stupid or very criminal will be trespassing during shtf. The smart ones will ask before they get too close.
They will be back, better prepared to take you out. They now know the lay of your situation…
To start with I am a Christian and it would be murder to shoot them without warning, where you are not sure this is a planned attack.
Best thing is to stay quite, watch and listen. If they are just scrounging then when they try entering a locked door and if they don’t try to force it and leave then your good but if they try to force the door then no choice but to shoot them.
Just entering your property is not justification for killing. In a shtf scenario scrounging is not stealing(it is surviving). So if there is something you do not want taken you best have it hidden with your stores.
Now if they just look around for things to use to help them survive and they take what you have left out that you do not care about then this would be Murder if you killed them.
I personally would not shoot unless they tried taking my stores and to do that they would have to enter where ever I am.
Most people are afraid and will have fear of entering a property they don’t know. So it stand to reason if you have to shoot that fear will override their wants in what you have at that time. They will run the first time. Now if they come back then you know it is an attack so you have no choice but to shoot.
@Texas Fred, In a SHTF situation, I would stop them from cover, interrogate them, etc like you suggest….but they would be leaving WITHOUT the weapons…I might not kill them unless they made it necessary to do so, but if you are trespassing on clearly marked property with a weapon, you are NOT an innocent and you are NOT a non-combatant. I don’t like killing people and don’t really want to add anymore to my conscience, so you would leave with your life if at all possible….BUT, you would NOT be leaving with a weapon that could later be turned on me or on another less protected family, and you would also not be leaving with a free handout. (only exception to that might be the dog if it didn’t act aggressive, and small weapons like a pocket knife. If the dog was aggressive and not kept restrained, it would be made into stew-meat. Sorry, but I am not playing around with attack dogs. Pocket knife/similar tool could be argued as a tool, not a weapon, as long as smaller than palm sized.) But during SHTF situations, I don’t care WHY you felt trespassing was okay, nor whether you have a hungry family or not…if you have decided that the easiest way to provide for your needs is to rob those who prepared ahead, you don’t need to be going around carrying weapons….and the stern warning would include the fact that if I see you again on my property, the next time around I will shoot first and ask questions afterwards. The first time, while definitely not accidental, still rates a warning….but the second time is an invasion, and will be treated as such, type thing. Not going to play the “what if” game, or the “maybe they really need it” game twice with them. That being said though, I enjoyed your post and thank you for sharing it.
If you shoot them you will have to toss them on the compost pile or bury them.
Spoken like atrue meathed!
And maybe you shoot 2 killers. Are you willing to take a chance and risk your families lives.
If I had to shoot two people to protect my family I would. I was raised around guns and was taught the basic knowledge that a gun when used is to kill.
That was not the question, Big Tree! Do you kill two guys with a gun and a dog, standing on the edge of your property, without knowing why they are there, or just kill them for being there? I am pretty sure everybody on this site will do what is necessary to protect their family, but hopefully their reactions will be thoughtful and not a knee-jerk decision. Everyone of us may need to leave our own property to forage or assess surrounding conditions. My policy is to treat others, like I would expect to be treated.
There is no one answer for all situations. Threat level and the strangers actions would determine actions taken.
A sign I have hanging.
The locks are not for my protection. They are for your protection. Enter without permission and I have little friends waiting to greet you and they do not use right or wrong thinking because they do not think.
I don’t think protecting your family will keep you out of heaven
What “Meathead” said!
Look at the picture, again, Wolfyrex! You have middle aged frumpy and slim, with a slun rifle, that may be only a pellet gun. This is not a cammando raiding party, that much is obvious to even a casual observer. Who in their right mind would off these two, just for being on the outter edges of their property. You don’t murder anyone, just because you have a gun and a backhoe! That sir is either B.S or insanity, CHOOSE ONE!
Always choose your family over strangers.
What is my level of defense and/or offense?
What is the environment, hostile or still friendly?
Do the attackers think they have rights to take any of my supplies due to their ethnicity?
Just some thought…
You love GOD above everything and everyone .GOD comes first..
While it’s inconvenient to point out to those whose virtue greatly exceeds mine, the ten commandments prohibits murder, not killing. Murder in the day that command was given was a particular type of killing, which you might (or might not) be interested in researching a bit.
If you are observing these two hypothetical strangers from a place of cover (the article suggests that you can see them and they haven’t seen you (yet, anyway), continue observing them. They will shortly declare whether they need to be shot, or not.
It may be wiser to try to ascertain their intentions prior to shooting. If you already have the drop on them, your chances of “winning” the confrontation are greatly enhanced if it comes to that. Under SHTF conditions, you may even gain an ally by asking questions first. The situation will determine the outcome, but an attempt at communication, in my opinion, far exceeds the “shoot first” mindset in arriving at a viable (non-lethal) outcome if a non-lethal outcome is possible at that point. Above all, at this point, don’t give away any “free shots” (pun intended) to the anti-gunners. Be wiser by being both aware and extremely responsible in your use of firearms in any and all situations which may require their well reasoned usage to protect yourself, your family, and/or your community. Stay safe.
You have just expressed so good sound advice. I looked at what you wrote from several prospectives (retired LEO, Christian, Dad & Granddaddy), in applying each aspect one common denominator kept popping up. Rushing to a wrong conclusion makes You the guilty one. It’s extremely easy to be full of moncho bravo and act without thinking. I’m trying to remember exactly how a old man expressed it to me. It’s along the lines of; ‘a thinking man wins, while a winning man thinks.’ The simplicity is Thinking makes you a winner.
And he who hesitates is lost. Hesitate and you and your family can die. You are responsible for your family and they depend on you for protection. If a person is only looking for food, they will usually call out to see if anyone is at home. If they have other reasons for being there, they won’t reveal their presents. If you are able to get the drop on them, then you can ask their questions or force them to leave. But either way, they may come back with more help. You have to ask yourself, what is more important, the safety of yourself and family or of complete strangers, whose real reasons for being there is unknown to you? That is the real question in this situation.
Patriot by choice is very prudent regarding this issue. The reality of willy-nilly killing would be harsh in a number of ways. However, if it does come down to “me and mine” versus them, guess who I’m gonna side with! My limited experience with cold blooded thieves is that if they get away, they will be back later, or go to your neighbors…
For real? Two men,one armed,one with a dog,come on my property unannounced,unknown,and unwelcomed,and I’m supposed to assume they have good intentions? For real?
Well, Sylvia… Their intentions are probably not to offer you gifts from afar, but they may not have bad intentions.
After all, they do not resemble biserking and maurading Vikings.
I hate to waste ammo, but maybe a re-load fired in the air would send a message, short of killing some kids daddy, or possibly your future husband.
What kind of dog? How is the dog equipped?
I agree. You are armed and come slinking around my property. it is safe to assume that you have a death wish. Especially at night. They know they will be viewed as trespassers and they know what to expect unless they have a brain the size of a walnut. This all assumes we will still have firearms after THEGREAT CONFISCASTION..
Nobody with half a brain will give up their firearms nor will they pay a $200 tax or register their firearms. Both of those are death wishes. The government may try to confiscate peoples guns by going door to door. But that wouldn’t last long after a few neighborhood firefights with the cops. The military will quit before they break their oaths to defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic. Any government that attempts to confiscate firearms have become domestic enemy #1. I expect it will get bloody and really dangerous in the coming months, if the democrats get into power by vote fraud.
Dog will always be considered a friend. Save the dog, shoot the intruders if they cannot prove they are not up to no good. They could be scouts looking for victims. Drag them out to the street and leave as an example. Feed the dog and have a happy life.
Please tell us, MyCountry, how can anyone that is suspicious of another, be convinced that the other is not up to no good? Proving a double negative to a suspicious, trigger happy, scared dufus… well, you can almost hear the banjo music from the movie DELIVERANCE… poor Ned Beaty!
Agreed….
I’m all about defending me & mine evennif it necessitates the taking of another human life to facilitate that.
At the same time killing someone simply for being in an area without ascertaining their reasons for being there is murder, marked warning signs or not.
In addition to that, taking the life of another human being changes a person forever unless that person is a complete psychopath with no regard for human life in the first place.
That is not to say I am against killing for any reason. Some circumstances absolutely exist where killing a lowlife POS on the spot is definitely the appropriate course of action.
If we instantly kill any and every individual who approaches in a SHTF situation, we are quite possibly diminishing our on chance of survival in the long term by eliminating possible allies or others with useful talents and skills that can be utilized to strengthen our on base of operations. The possibilities there are infinite…
At the same time, we have to be aware that there are more than enough people out there who are nothing more than parisites who’s only goal is to seek out others to feed and house them without providing any useful contributions of their on. Those parasites absolutely need to be identified ASAP and steps taken to insure they have no doubt that they are not welcome.
While I do know a lot about a good number of things, I readily admit that I don’t know everything about anything. I guess that’s where networking comes into play. For that reason, it’s highly considerable to have a small circle of like minded individuals one trusts who can convene when the time calls for it to assist for the benefit of all…
In my mind, there will absolutely be times in a SHTF crisis when killing is not only acceptable, but absolutely vital to insure survival, but there will be inumerable circumstances where killing would be unnecessary and just totally wrong at times.
I, for one, while I do what I can to prepare and survive TEOTWAWKI, would like to at least retain what I can if my humanity when I reach the other side….
The problem you left out is how to tell if the persons in question is friend, foe, possible ally or just another parasite.
This you will not be able to tell until you have a one on one conversation with them, they have been around for a while(being carefully watched) and having all the others of your parties thoughts about them.
So you have increased your risk factor tremendously by taking in someone you think is possible ally. If they turn on you during an attack then you lose.
So there is no way of being sure about the unknowns. What is best is to set up your group before hand and only allow known people that you feel can be trusted into your group.
Its not a question of “Loving your family”. The question is impossible to answer without ALL of the specifics.
Exactly, until that moment in time is there in front of you, only then will one know how he/she will react.
If it is truly a shtf scenario and it’s been going on for awhile then you have to use your best judgement. Help them if they are neighbors and friends and you know them. If they are strangers and you get bad vibes from them …. then your dogs need to eat too. Don’t waste the meat, feed your guard dogs. It would be a tough call shtf I would imagine, but you gotta think about your loved ones, your wife, kids and grandkids first and foremost.
On our acreage, I’ve held three people at gunpoint at different times. It was not fun. One time a kid was stealing gas, saw my gun and pleaded for mercy. The problem with killing people, even bad ones, which I am not against… you have to live with your decision the rest of your life.
The kid with the gasoline told me he we just trying to survive… I told him “join the club, we’re all trying to survive”. This was during the community agitator obama admin.
What did I do… I told the kid to put the gasoline back, leave, and tell his buddies this is NOT a good place to go. As he was driving off, I fired a round into the grass to give him a little “boost”.
Guess I’m trying to say, we all must use personal judgement… If my family was in danger, he would have died quickly and I would have slept well that night. However, for the gasoline… I think I used the best response. I’ve never saw that little bastard again!
Have them make Peace with their God and send them on their way to meet Him.
Hold them till you know their intentions if bad, shoot them.
Mac, you and Sundown, need to grow the F~<k up! Taking human lives is not a video game! You murder two guys, with a dog, that may just be trying to find abandoned sites that would be an upgrade for their families survival and you invite retribution, that could get you and your loved ones slaughtered. Y'all are piss ants, when 20 or 30 armed men decide payback is in order.
Many here like to talk tough, but you’ll never know until you’re in the situation… I do value life and for the most part, probably wouldn’t fire. I will aim and ask them to leave. Their response while trespassing on my property will determine what happens to them. If they stop and just say they need food, I will probably stay in/near the shelter and throw some spare canned foods and water their way. But to be brutally honest, in that situation it is every man for himself. In nature only the strongest survive, so I’m not going to give out all my food so I starve either..
Now if they have a different response and come after me to take my belongings, or they come back a second time for more when I don’t have more (and don’t take no for an answer), then I will do what I have to, to survive.
Drop the gun, or I’ll kill you , your dog, all your friends…
Then hang them on a post down the road with a sign around their neck that says LOOTERS!
It’s stuff. The path should ALWAYS be non-violent. See to do no harm and live peaceably. If you can show them you’re armed they may decide its not worth it. If they choose to engage, then you may have no choice.
If my gun clears my holster, never will there be a wounding; they’ll be dead. Do you not know the rules of gun safety?
Don’t point your gun at anything you don’t wish to destroy.
Give that some thought.
You’d better have this well thought out before you get to that point. Think! Bodies bring attention, lawsuits, and lots of jail time. There’s a common saying in my church, “Many hands make light work.”
How much burden will be added to your family with you now gone? How much safer are they with you in prison?
I am a prepper in every sense of a description. I have prepared for the SHTF situations. A SHFT situation changes everything. I have a family I am tasked with protecting. My entire property has a fence around it. I have purchased razor wire that will be placed inside the fenced area in strategic locations. Anyone who who wants to enter my property will have to work to get on my property and approach my house. I have plans to place items in the most inconspicuous places so as not to draw attention to my property. Well inside the razor wire will be warnings that trespassers will be shot if the 3 German Shepperd attack dogs do not get you first, and that is exactly what will happen. I have given them every warning and opportunity to vacate my property. I have no other responsibility but to my family. May God have mercy on my soul and theirs.
In response to the Biblical reference, the actual translation from the Aramaic is “Thou shalt not commit murder.” Not as usually translated, “Thou shalt not kill.”
That being said, with someone playing overwatch, I would address the trespassers from cover. Tell them they are trespassing and to put down the weapon and get their hands up. Ask their intentions and go from there. If they fire first, they have stated intent to murder by action, and me and mine have every right to defend with lethal force.
We also have the option of moving them along peacefully or donating supplies to them IF it won’t endanger me and mind.
Good response!
gremlin – I’m 100% with you including the Bible verse translation. You have to kill just to eat even if you are veggan. You are still killing plants for your survival. Nice to run into someone who correctly translates that verse. It really does mean “murder” not “kill”. Completely different in intent. Basically, you “kill” to survive, as to why commit “murder” I’m pretty much in the dark. Killing in self-defense is NOT murder.
You cannot kill something that is not biblically living. God breathed the breath of life into Adam… not into animals and plants. People are body, soul and spirit. Animals are body and soul. Plants are body.
This seems the best rssponse to me. Hope we never face this situation.
Absolutely! Hope we never have to face a situation where e have to make that choice but be prepared to act instantly AND correctly if and when the time comes.
I would have the advantage to get them to leave with their life. If you gun them down they could be an advance party and the main group is moving up. They are not leaving until they get revenge or you repel them. There is no real easy way to address this issue, go with your gut. The advantage is they don’t know your numbers and your position/s. The real issue is give a human enough time he will watch and figure how to take you down if they can. As far as feeding them? No. They will want more sooner rather than later. If those we’re 2 dad’s and a dog you have to feed the kids and mom and maybe others. Hope you have a lot to spare.
In a SHTF situation many will bug out to group up with relatives and friends and those leaving in haste leave much behind and carry only out what they can. Those in the general vicinity that stay may venture out to gather what they can, that may be useful. Two guys, a dog and a gun may not know your place is occupied. the gun might be for defense, or to take a rabbit or squirrel. Never make an enemy if you don’t have to. Make your presence known from cover and turn them back.
You are correct
Ridgerunner. Glad to see you brought up one of the 759 laws that were written for a certain peoples. There is only one seedline that is a covenant to this law and not the many that exist. The concept of this issue. The intruders have arrived to enter and confiscate what is not theirs. It brings up the concept of the 10 virgins, who had knowledge of the coming down of SHTF. Five were prepared and five were not. The door was closed on five who were not prepared and left on their own to pillage for survival. Remember there is only one seedline that is the elect/chosen. They will be prepared and stay out of the way of chaos.
The 10 virgin reference is about the getting into the Kindom of God not self-defense and the like. That being said, Jesus expects us to love others as we love ourselves and if a man strikes your cheek, turn the other towards him as well. To me, this reflects our current laws: if someone is stealing property, then you do not have the right to kill them over it, granted, in a SHTF scenario, your property can mean your life (like food, etc.). Now, as another one commented earlier, if their intent is to do physical harm/kill you, then you have the right to defend yourself. The biggest problem that I see is that SHTF scenarios are uncharted territory and there are exceptions to every “rule”. There were many good examples listed above. Bottom line for me: I really don’t know what I would do until I could access the situation more clearly. My gut would be to try and unarm them first and see what the situation warrants. Sorry for the long response…
Hank, your reference the The Chosen People (Jews), They were chosen to deliver G-D’s Laws to all peoples. the laws that you alluded to, were primarily about hygiene and dietary, as “Cleanliness is next to Godliness”. Pork was considered unclean, as were other animals with cloven hooves, shell fish spoiled easily and caused severe illness, etc. Today, we live under different, but many, many more man made laws.
You are correct: “thou shalt not murder” is right.
I agree with this comment. I would hate to shoot first and then find a young family waiting for their father to return with water and food. BUT, that said, if someone comes to my house with the obvious intent to murder, rape, and then take everything I have….Well, I’ll tap them three times….two to the chest, one to the head.
This is the best answer I’ve seen in line with what I would do
In a SHTF condition. I would expect if they were just out looking and came across my house they would know to call out and announce themselves. As they will then know what they are walking into. I would do the same. If they don’t I would follow the thought they are there to get what they can. And I would not trust them. I would not break cover. So they wouldn’t really know what they are up against. But I would give them the chance to leave or die. After that it’s their choice and it will let me know their intentions.
Absolutely!
The only problem with donating supplies is that, at that point, they know you have ‘extra’. I’m not saying I wouldn’t, but…I don’t want to run into the ‘stray cat syndrome, either. You are correct on the actual verse translation, too.
Wow. People believe what you write. Wrong Testament. The Commandments are in the Old one, Hebrew, not Aramaic, and it is kill, murder not having a definition then.
It’s one thing to be an idiot. Another to encourage others to join you.
The Hebrew word is rasah and it does mean premeditated murder.
fiske, Moses was adopted by an Egyptian Princess, as a baby. I am pretty sure he was taught Aramaic, as a child and equally sure the Tablets of Stone with the Ten Commandments, carried down from the mountain, were also inscribed in Aramaic. The original bibles were in Aramaic and Greek, or so I was told, long ago.
friske, murder has been in our vernacular since Cain Slew Able! Moses was adopted as a baby and raised by an Egyptian Princess. I am pretty sure he was schooled in Aramaic and the stone tablets he carried down from the mountain most likely had the Ten Commandments inscribed in Aramaic. The DEADSEA SCROLLS were Aramaic and most of the early bibles were either Greek or Aramaic. Addressing the idiot part is above my paygrade!
I agree with everything in the first 2 paragraphs but I draw the line at that last separate sentence! “NEVER” give supplies away to get them to move on! Only and I mean ONLY help those whom you know! They “may” actually be true survivors who are seeking supplies for their groups survival and maybe not. What if in their travels they are caught by others of a more disreputable character and they mention you and your ability to share with them. Your good deed may just get you and yours killed! Now if those whom you had to turn away leave peacefully and in their travels do find some supplies and on their return pass by and share. That will put them into a different light where some trust is earned and some barter could be started and in time maybe an understanding or co-existence began. Or maybe they may return with other like minded disreputable people willing to kill for all your supplies. Tough times require tough decisions but to survive you DO NOT show weakness in trying to get others to go away! There is safety in numbers and if you can build a strong survival group, you’ll live a whole lot longer.
Ridgerunner: Exactly what I would do. Holler drop it or die and if they raise the weapon, drop them both, and fertilize the back forty.
This is in a total societal breakdown scenario.
If who ever comes on another’s property armed with out the owners permission risks their own life especially in rural areas.
I say if they attempt to breach kill them.
As other and I have stated, they must show intent. An attempted breach is definitely a show of intent. In most places, this is grounds for the use of lethal force.
Joe: Sorry to say that is not the law in “most places.”
It is only the law in states with a “stand your ground” statute in place. Some states even require you to retreat in your own home if you can do so safely before using force.
That was the rule under the old Common Law of Britain and carried over to the U.S. with immigrants from Jolly Old Blighty. Today, with socialism having completely taken over Britain and gradually taking over here in the U.S., self-defense is getting more and more frowned upon.
Thankfully, since the turn of the century we have seen a trend to more and more “stand your ground” rules being enacted but not every state legislature is so enlightened.
It behoves the prudent preppier to know exactly what the law says in his or her own state or any state where the prudent preppier may own property so that they don’t run the danger of having to stand trial for having violated a law they didn’t know about or didn’t clearly understand.
Doug, 40 feet is pretty darn close, however it is about the minimum set-back for a home, from a road. If you live in the middle of ten acres, or more 40 feet is way too close, for strangers, with a gun and not calling out.
But, if they are just off of the road, close to your house, then you really don’t know if they have been out hunting and got lost, or possible waiting for a pre-arranded ride. It is rapidly becoming untenable, as the sun is setting, so they must be dealt with… dispatch, or destroy and dispose. Tough choice, but they are in fact armed intruders, at nightfall and have made no effort to explain their presence, or reach out. It would be a sleepless night, for sure. The nightfall timing is critical,in this.
If their looting stuff that doesn’t affect you (all the super important stuff they won’t be able to get at unless they get past you) and you are in no danger, then NO, you can’t shoot to kill! If you’re a true prepper, scavengers won’t know what you have squirreled away anyway. Call out to them with a hidden over watch and demand their intentions. Odds are they’ll choose to walk away rather than risk being killed if they don’t know what you have! Yes, they may come back with their buddies but at that point, you’ll know their intentions and if you’re properly prepped, they won’t get past you!
Yes then they come back with enough people to over run your site. Sorry shoot first ask questions later.
It’s statements like “shoot first ask questions later” that are getting peppers labeled as some type of fanatics. Being a prepper is about being prepared. Not about being savage minded.
Rick, you would do well to consider what RADRICH posted. It is not only immoral to seriously injure or kill someone who is not an immediate threat to yourself or others, it is also a criminal offense. Family feuds have taken heavy tolls, over much less…Hatfields & McCoys comes to mind. That 1870s feud boiled over three generations in two states. Scavenging for ones survival is not a sufficient reason to destroy another human being. Post your property and bar your doors. Shoot those the attempt forced entry… warn away others, from cover or concealment. Anyone packing a firearm would be in my sights before the warning, for sure.
if ,if,,if,. Exactly. Those that are with bad intentions will usually & unquestionaly make that decision for you.And not only be equipped however be prepared too before you & if you open your mouth.God Bless us all and I really hate that we are in a place & time to where this is even a subject to have to be aware of,ya know what I mean ?
If you have planned ahead, why not absorb them into your camp. They will be grateful and can bolster your forces.
or kill you in your sleep
If they are scrounging for food/supplies already (the parameters suggested 10 days without power) they have not prepared AT ALL! Not even enough to hold through a 10 day outage, let alone months or years. My camp can’t use them, they’re useless if that’s the case. Now, down the road, as those that didn’t prepare are thinned out, I see an advantage for the remainder in various states of preparation (dependent upon many factors such as income, space, resources etc.) to begin to come together to barter and reinstate some sort of government.
you have 30 days of food, you take them in, you just cut the amount of food you have for yourself and your family.
Please research EMP …can be caused by a solar flare or one nuke detonated above the atmosphere…It fries the power grid (including electronic ignitions) 2006 Congressional study estimated 90% casualty rate within one year (no way to transport food or medicine, no communication) Large power transformers can take a couple of years to replace under ideal conditions.https://energy.gov/sites/prod/files/Large%20Power%20Transformer%20Study%20-%20June%202012_0.pdf….when people at work suggest they would come to my house because they know I am kind hearted….I tell them I would have to choose between keeping my family alive for a year or keeping a bunch of friends alive and all dieing together in a few weeks. I hope I would choose family
CAUTION ! ! !
Everyone needs to THINK before accepting any “expert”s doggerel about ‘EMP’ causing EVERYTHING electric to fail!
EMP is NOT a continuous electric current such as is available in every house in the USofA today. The solar flare that caused so much trouble in the 1800’s was a long-term event and the continuous current caused many fires over the long wires used for telegraphs.
The short-term EMP will NOT harm any large current devices, that is, nothing that uses more than a fraction of an amp of electric current.
Virtually all micro-circuit devices WILL be rendered into GARBAGE instantly unless protected by a Faraday Cage. These are simple and cheap to make for those items that you will be storing and planning on using AFTER the EMP event.
Aluminum foil completely covering an item and with all seams folded over will suffice to stop EMP damage.
Common aluminum, steel, or copper screen wiring will work as long as there are no open spaces at the joints. by using a simple rabbet joint and folding the screening around the edges, you can make a ‘box’ of any size to house things that can be accessed quickly and easily.
There are too many varying opinions on EMPs for me to take anyone’s narrative too seriously. I have faraday cages for several items, but I think most EMP “experts” agree that power lines will be gone and so will phone lines and antennae as well as the satellites that give signals to those antennae.
“If something happens, I”ll just come to your house!” I hate that. I remind people who say that that I don’t have enough for them, that it’s their responsibility to prepare for their family, not mine! I also say, “Don’t come to my house! We…and our supplies…won’t be there! We’ve bugged out!
A good response is always “just be sure to bring enough food and supplies for your group.” Usually starts an educational conversation of what they should be storing.
It the grid is down a 30 day supply is nothing. To share might be a nice gestor, BUT I remember a snowflake telling me ” we do not need to stockpile. We will just take what we need from you fools that spend your money to store food for us”. That makes me want to shoot first.
gestor was changed from gesture.
You only have 30 days food, that should be you out hunting.
Crown Jewel, might want to consider saving his emergency stores, until the local game has been taken, being an expert on prepping and all.
Great answer.. Where do you live?
Giggle! On a small island in the middle of a big expanse of water!
I’m so out of the way that no one would ever just casually walk past my house. They would have to be actively looking for MY house…and if I don’t know them, they shouldn’t be there. If they insist on coming onto the property, I would assume they were there for unacceptable reasons and would act accordingly.
I know of no place where you can take a life if you are not threatened, ie your or someone else’s life is in immediate danger. Do not shoot first unless you are absolutely certain or risk going to prison. Racking back on a shotgun, the slide of a pistol or the bolt of a rifle from a safe distance is usually all the warning that people need. Make sure that it is difficult to see you and be behind a barrier. If your gun is trained on them and theirs is still on their shoulder, etc, they will know that you have the upper hand. If after this and possibly a verbal warning they keep coming, you can assume that they mean you harm. Check you local laws. I live in a state with both Castle Doctrine and Stand Your Ground laws but could still be charged depending on the circumstances. Even better is to have 3 or 4 people in hiding to “rack back” their weapons. I stopped an attack on a man simply by clicking off the safety and thumb cocking my pistol once. As soon as I showed him my cocked pistol under my jacket, with my finger on the trigger guard, he knew that he was at a great disadvantage. Set up early warning devices around your property, let the trespassers hear them and they will know that you are aware of them. The smart ones, good and bad, will leave; the dumb ones will never learn.
I thought this was a 10 days post SHTF exercise. At that point i am not worried about castle laws.
Check the laws of Texas. After dark opens season on interlopers.
Every state has different laws. It is of little concern to the preppier in Connecticut what the laws are in Texas. As it is of no concern to a pepper in Texas what the laws in New York are. It the individual prepper’s responsibility to know precisely what the laws are in his home state as well as what the laws are in a prospective refuge state with regard to self defense. No prosecution attorney will accept as a defense, “Well the laws in the state where I used to live . . .” If he feels that you have acted outside the laws of the state where he prosecutes, he will.
Rule of law will eventually be restored. It might take 100 years for rule of law to be fully restored, but even if rule of law is not restored nation wide for 100 years, it will be restored in small areas all across the country no matter how primitive our living conditions. Tribes have had tribal rules of conduct for eons. Punishment for violation of this tribal rules varied.
If your conduct during a period where rules were somehow in abeyance, was so atrocious as to violate what was generally accepted, you will be called to account for your conduct.
It may well be that the punishment for violation of an accepted standard of conduct is far harsher than what it might have been under civilization as we know it today.
Confinement will only be a very temporary thing until final punishment is decided. There won’t be lawyer representation and lengthy crime scene investigation and the jury will probably know about your unacceptable behavior before being called for jury duty if there is such. It may be that punishment may be vigilante punishment with sentence executed on the spot.
Punishment might be quite harsh. I can envision branding on the face, removal of hands, perhaps removal of facial features such as ears or nose. Perhaps just removing fingers or toes. The death penalty will be exercised more frequently and more rapidly, I have often remarked on this list about a case from CA in the 19th century where the defendant stole a barrel of flour worth more than $200. Judgment and sentence was pronounced on Wednesday and the sentence of hanging was carried out early Saturday morning. The CA Supreme court didn’t have a problem with sentence or execution although they did remark that they thought execution was a bit hasty. They didn’t bother reversing either as it would have been moot. The convicted thief was long dead.
I think after an EOTW event we will see a lot more of Wednesday sentencing—Saturday morning executions.
Be polite, have a plan to kill everyone you meet but be prudent in the execution of the plan to change James Mattis’ mantra.
I’m sorry but I have never seen so many dead people in my life. Yes you, the ones who are questioning whether to shoot. Even if they are just scavenging that in itself tells me they are no prepared and have no food. Either this time or the next they are going to kill to get what they need. They have had the same chance as preppers to get prepared. There are too many people who have thought it stupid to “be prepared”. That thinking just cost you your life.
I may have enough supplies to last a couple of months, I will probably still be out ‘scavenging’, if I am not threatening you in any way, would you not just leave me be or try to communicate? So many different scenario’s to consider, I could be the guy that can get your vehicle running again, who knows.
Or the one with some medical training, or military training, or engineer training….
Like I said before, the possibilities are infinite. It would not only be flat out wrong to automatically execute any and every individual who approached; it would be monumentally stupid and possibly even hasten your on demise.
Aside from that , nobody out there can “kill em all” anyway. Rambo is a fictional character made up in the mind of somebody in Hollywood.
Though I don’t advocate trying to be the next Mother Teresa in a SHTF situation unless one wants to end up as dead as she is pretty quickly, I also don’t advise becoming convinced that one individual has even the slightest chance of holding off the masses of starving, desperate, and even predatory characters who will end up doing nothing they can think of just to get a scrap of food or sip of water alone. That kind of mindset is not only ignorant Nd naive; it’s aelfdestructive as well…
Maybe a better way to handle trespassers is to warn them with signs stating beyond this point trespassers should expect to be held at gunpoint to determine their intentions. This may avoid any unintended consequences, and if they still come forward at least they know what to expect.
I agree with you, assign with intentions is a good idea, I have trespassing signs and all my weapons are sighted in at 500 yards which is the end of my driveway!
A sign means you have something valuable to protect. You advertised it with your sign.
Idahocowboy: AMEN!!!
Some folks are a lot harder to kill than others, Ida ho, ho!
Maybe they were prepared, but got raided. Since everything of value was taken away on a deuce and a half, they now need to find some food for their family and some medical supplies to patch up their friends, who were hurt during the raid.
There will be a lot of people who, instead of prepping supplies, are only prepping weapons and numbers, so they can go out and raid preppers and take their supplies. You see these guys on all the prepper sites, and there was even some show and a documentary on TV about it.
You don’t know if the people approaching you are from the first group, the unfortunate souls, or the second group, a band of marauders.
If you just open fire, you don’t know how many people are waiting back at their camp for them to return. They, most likely, informed their group members where they planned on exploring. Nothing like getting relentlessly attacked and burned out by people with vengeance on their minds because you slaughtered their family and/or friends.
Another thing to consider is their backgrounds. All of the conflicts, over the year, have created a lot of combat vets who actually know how to shoot, move, and communicate, unlike the XBox warriors who talk big on Internet prepper sites, but would shit their pants the first time a rounds whizzes past them.
I think a better bet would be to set up some kind of early warning system and then observe them. If you have enough people in your group, set up guard shifts, perimeter patrols and scouts who go out and check for movement of stragglers and parties. Have your terrain set up, with junk, rocks, cars, and/or foliage (depending on where your HQ/bunker/home happens to be) so that anyone passing through is corralled through a narrow and easily defended path. Anyone with half a brain knows it would be a bad place to try something stupid. Make it tricky to access or even see your entrances/exits.
Meanwhile, don’t make yourself known, and just watch and listen to them. Is there tension in their group? Do they argue a lot? Are they joking about some house they just raided and murdered the occupants? Are they discussing what food, clothing, and supplies to look out for in order to care for the 10 kids they just rescued from sex slavers? Are they using any military tactics in their movement, like bounding overwatch? Who knows, maybe you like how organized and level-headed they are and you can open some dialog for barter or even a merger. If it doesn’t go well, they are still herded in an indefensible position.
Unless you know something about the character and training of the people approaching your location, it would be foolhardy to just open fire on them. Would you want someone to just start killing your group if you found yourself having to go out and scavenge for some food, meds, or supplies?
They may find your entrance forcing you to reveal yourself and find out their intentions. If you set it up where they would be at a disadvantage in conflict, they will either realize it and not engage you, or they won’t, and you may need to do what you need to do to protect you and yours.
Anyway, there are way to many variables, involving the set up of your “base”, the surrounding terrain, number of people in your group, what skills you all have, your moral physical and mental health, what supplies and gear you have, etc.. I have neither the desire, nor the time to into every possible scenario, so I only offered some things to think about.
Personally, I have a military background. I can shoot very well, I understand tactics, and I can set some wicked traps. I also have an electronics/computer background, so wherever I may be, if I have access to some scraps, I will MacGyver some power generation. From there I can scavenge and set up hidden cameras, motion detectors, and alarms. Every day, I learn more. I know I am not invincible, so I’d rather make friends and share my knowledge and skills. However, when it comes down to it, if you are aggressive or looking for trouble, I’d rather bury you and yours, than mine.
Vanguard, I like the way you think. How I wish I had someone with your skills nearby! I don’t have a group…and most in the general area where I live think I’m just a crazy old lady. If you ever consider moving to the Pacific Northwest, let me know! You’d be welcome!
Giggle, giggle, snort, giggle. Just be aware it rains a LOT up here.
Military can spot military pretty much within a few words. You definitely speak my language and I will say with all candor that we seem to share the same mindset…..
The question about shooting looters ? Yes , I will shoot looters, BUT The two men an dog are not looting. They might be on your property, But they dont know if you have bugged out, or not ! They may be out hunting game, An the dog helps them, I would inquire about their reason for being on your property, Then decide what your actions will be. , Of course , being a prepper, This scenario should of been thought about long before it came to pass. So now your decision is immediate.Depending on how they answer..
Shoot him dead, drag the body out to the road, erect a sign telling everyone, “here lies the last looter that tried his luck”.
I understand the whole Thou shall not kill thing, but I do believe that to be for murder, not self defense.
Being a Christian myself, when the SHTF, the first thing I’m going to do is pray! To those preppers who have a doctor, nurse, dentist, a great fisherman, gunsmith, gardener, and most important someone who understands human nature and reads body language, than fire away! Less than 25% of the people in this country have done any prepping. God just might be sending the people, to dig the soil, plant the seeds, bake, can the food so that you last more than 6- 12 months! JUST SAYING
In a pre-SHTF scenario, you challenge them, all the while with your green laser holding steady between the leader’s eyes. Ascertain intentions, and decide from there the course of action if no aggression is demonstrated. Also in a pre-situation, if they broach the perimeter of your home in ANY fashion, dust em, no questions asked. If they had to exert force in order to gain entry to your home, their intentions are clear enough even to the dimmest amongst us….
DURING a SHTF scenario, all bets are off, and THEY should understand that as well that the parameters of social interaction have changed. If they re on the perimeter of your property, they can be threatened or deterred away. If they are blatently violating your property and they are well within broaching distance of your house, while covered, they get one quick chance to give me something believable and/or plausible. If it sounds like BS, they meet Jesus before I do…..
If you post the property with signs saying trespassers will be shot on sight I say shoot them but everything depends on how long you have been in the SHTF position has it been a week or a year you and your own come first if you can help others help those that are your neighbors and you should know who they are
http://jpfo.org/rabbi/6th-commandment.htm
In summary of the research I posted above, the ancient Hebrew word, carried over from the Aramaic, used in the Ten Commandments as “thou shalt not kill” is R-Tz-Ch (pronounced Ratsach or Ratzekh) meaning “to murder.” However, there are two other Biblical references to killing: H-R-G (pronounced Harag or Harog) and M-O-T (pronounced Mat or Muth). H-R-G is used to connotate “crimes of passion” or “righteous killing in defense of the defenseless,” while M-O-T is used to connotate “righteous killing with Divine direction/exception” or “righteous killing of those who have or would murder.” Given the evidence uncovered, I would say that as the faithful, we DO have the Divinely-inspired authority to use deadly force….IN THE RIGHT CIRCUMSTANCES.
As for the scenario described, I personally DO NOT think that this is one of those circumstances because the two “looters” are not presenting a clear mortal danger to you, your family, or another person or people (potentially, the defenseless). They do not as yet ascribe to Ratsach (murder) by their actions and therefore, in my mind, are not culpable by either Harag or Mat. That being said, I do agree with several others here that non-violent means of confrontation (racking your weapon, showing a superior force of arms, threatening detainment, etc) is necessary in this scenario. If nothing else, some investigating into why they are doing what they are doing is necessary. If they should escalate into violence after you peaceably confront them, then by virtue of Mat, and arguably Harag, judicious marksmanship is appreciated!
You did your homework Panthers14, nice job.
Great thoughts in this article. Regarding the last most question: if one is able, i think it is a good plan to have sufficient force available to confront (from cover) and give the “foragers” opportunity to demonstrate their intent. If it is plain their intentions are bad, then force is met with force and the interlopers are appropriately dispatched. If their intentions are more benign, then it gives the “home team” opportunity to either negotiate an arrangement (you and your party go over there and wait. we’ll bring to you some of the provision that you need.), or to send them packing with needs unmet.
Kill one and detain the other. Clean and cook the one and send the 2nd one on his way with 1/4 of the cooked one.
Tell him he’s welcome to come back next week and bring a friend
Great minds think alike,lol
Mathew Stephens: when the second one gets back to his camp and they ask where the first one is, he can hold out the pot and say “he’s like mamma Leone, he’s in there”. lol
As a minister with a Biblical degree, I certainly agree that taking a life in self defense is not murder. In the Old Testament, the killing of an intruder is specifically mentioned as being justified. Additionally, someone who wants to steal the food and water your family needs is just as much a threat to your survival as those who may want to shoot you.
Having said that, just because things are SHTF and WROL right now that does not assure that you will not have to justify your actions legally at the end of the crisis. In short, you had better be able to justify the use of deadly force in the very same way you would do so in normal times.
What would I do? Well, I would not open fire on them. As others have pointed out, you do not know their intent. Additionally, they could be part of a group with which you could form a valuable alliance.
I would level my weapon at them and demand that they disarm. Once that is done, I would separate them, question them and evaluate their story. If they are simply a couple of hunters, I would let them go. Ditto if they were intent upon scavenging from abandoned homes (you might have to do that yourself). However, if I was convinced that they were intent upon armed robbery and looting from people sheltering in place – I would then face a very hard choice.
This situation points out the critical need to organize your neighborhood as soon as possible in a WROL situation. The larger the group, the better chance of survival.
How can one prepare cheaply? I live off a small military disability.
One can of food at a time. Do you coupon shop? Can your own foods and jams? Just a little at a time helps. The biggest thing is to adjust your mindset. Most people live at the local grocery store or Walmart. They only have food for three days to a week in thier house at a time. Start by putting one or two staples aside at a time. Change your perception of what a normal amount of food in the home is.
Another part of cheap prepping is garage sales, you can get tarps, camp cookware, fire starters, propane stoves, other useful things cheaply that way. We picked up two empty propane bottles for $20 dollars last year–usually $60-80 new. Look for deals.
Study how people lived during the Depression. Read about how pioneers lived. Study the root cellars, food storage, water storage, and the biggest thing…don’t get caught up in the hype of the newest and coolest gadgets.
Do your research. Check multiple reviews. Look for independent sources. Research the sources themselves. If you see something you think you need, save for it. It took me two years to get my HF Ham Radio, but when I did, we paid cash in hand for everything we needed to go home and get it up and running on the same day. (Also swapshops, Hamfests, antique stores, Pawn Shops, Army/Navy Surplus stores, and Whatnot Shops are great cheap resources).
If you have a Kindle reader or app, Amazon usually has a few free prepping books each day. You sometimes have to page through all kinds of free dibble books to find them, but hey, for free ideas and resources, I think it’s worth it.
All Great advice…if you don’t have much money $5 (even$1) per week of extra canned goods is cheap insurance for the future. Canned food beyond expiration date “may look or taste a little different over a long period but is safe to eat “
Canned food past it`s expiration date is edible and will satisfy your hunger, but it does lose much of it`s nutritional value over time. It`s important to supplement it with a broad spectrum vitamin and mineral supplement. Be sure to store enough for a lengthy period of time, as the longer your food preps sit the more their nutritional value will decline.
Ask any veteran that served between WWII and Viet Nam. Korean War vets ate c-rations canned in the early forties. Don’t ask me how I know this. My favorite was chicken & noodles. I traded my beans and franks, for ’em. C-rats came in a pak with an antoque chocolate bar and a four pak of smokes, usually Lucky Strikes, or Camels. Nothing was fresh, no filters, but heartily welcomed. A lot of 17 and 18 year old guys learned a bad habit with stale cigarettes. I finally gave ’em up in1990.
Ino a SHTF situation,
You have to make the decision to accomodate the circumstance.
1. Some times you have to shoot to kill.
2.. some times to severely wound.
3. Use him as a slave till you finished with him.
#3. Has its pluses and minuses and can be a hardshio.
#2. It is better that he is left to die somewhere else.
#1. This is not as easy as it seems.
Because, do you know how hard it is to burry someone’s body, it is very difficult if done right.
And if there are more than one, more difficult.
So all three are what you make of it.
Zeek, a) never, ever shoot to wound, if lethal force is justified. b) The buzzards and wild things have to eat, too. c) Addressing the scenario, above; the two men & a dog… lethal force is definitely not justified, unless and until, they exhibit aggression, like breaking and entering, or pointing a weapon. If someone comes onto my property and enters my garden area, without permission, that would anger me, but not to the level of crippling or taking a human life.
Grampa, below… If you live in an isolated area, sending rounds down range might scare someone off, but most of us have neighbors. I only have two acres and when an intruder discovers I have a firearm, it should be too late. You only invite ambush, by the bad guys, if you possess anything of value to them.
Good comments – except when going to a range for sighting in – I can’t remember firing a round that didn’t put meat on the table – being a Grandpa – taught my kids the same – will do so with grandchildren if still around. Rounds are precious!
Some advice from a guy that spent his entire adult life “protecting” Americans:
People for some inexplicable reason WANT to believe the vast percentage of people are NOT GOOD!!!
My unscientific guesstimate is that only 10-15% are GOOD …. 10-20% are generally DECENT …. 20% are TRANSITIONAL according to the circumstances …. 40% are BAD (criminal) …. and, at the very least, 10% of people are truly EVIL (the depths of their depravity, inhumanity, and desire to torture “for sadistic fun”) and can’t even be imagined …. certainly not described.
SITUATION & CIRCUMSTANCES will dictate a lot of knowledge. Good people will always make sure to be home before dark. They certainly won’t be approaching your home armed with darkness approaching.
ARMED VISITORS should be challenged pointedly, disarmed immediately, and shot if they refuse.
QUESTIONING MOTIVES: with my former occupations, I was very good at “reading people” …. BUT, I would never rely on my guesses 100%.
MY TACT would be to approach them grabbing their rifle and demanding they empty everything …. pretending to be more crazed & desperate then were! I’d be screaming “I need your food …. give it up!”
OUTCOME: I may let them leave alive …. but, they would certainly leave knowing I had apparently NOTHING to return for …. except ONE of their rifle’s bullet!!!
A warning to leave and if they return you say we will shoot indicating more than one gun. A quick rig of fishing line on the perimeter will warn against intrusion If I was casting for food I would return on the second or third night. be aware. An alarm set off in this time should result in shots fired as accurately as possible. different alarms for each side of the compass will direct your shots to the correct area. let them know that you are trying to stop them. Any return fire will locate them and show they are hostile
Grampa
Grampa, me too. I like how you think. I recently bought a dozen smoke grenade tops online, they make the most excellent trip wire alarms you’ve ever seen! good luck to you and yours.
This is going to be the hardest thing of all!
Civility/Morality vs Survival.
It will have to be decided on a case by case basis. It’d be a good idea to start reading up on body language. This would give some indication of intention upon first sight. Make sure you are behind some kind of protective barrier when making first contact. Be ready to shoot, without actually looking like you are, so as to prevent apprehension. Play it by ear!
We could go thru 1000 scenarios preparing for this, but when it happens, no one knows how they will react until they are actually in the situation!
Godspeed everyone! It’s going to get worse, count on it!
I disagree strongly with “both sides” as presented by others above. Shooting someone scavenging is not only immoral, it invites retribution. Inviting them to join you is very risky. And given large numbers of unprepared people, will quickly deplete your supplies. Warning them off lets them know that you are protecting something valuable, and wastes ammo. Eventually, you will do this to those scouting for a large group, and the jig is up. Giving them a little something and sending them along is an even more dangerous combination of these risks.
The only responsible answer? Keep yourselves hidden. If someone tries to break in, then act out of necessity. But your primary plan is to be undetected, or if detected, of no apparent value.
Your conclusion is interesting and might work for your geographical location, and it might work in the early stages of WTSHTF. However, if you’ve prepared for long term survival, more than a year, you should have things that will inevitably attract looters. Your garden, fruit trees, livestock and water to take care of them. Energy sources like wind or solar will always attract the unwanted. These are not easy to conceal. Your livestock make noise and you cannot control that. So eventually it will come down to a decision between your groups survival or the looters.
My place sits on about 40 fenced acres and the house is fenced inside that on about 4 acres. Motion sensors all around and night vision. Longest shot to the inner fence is about 320 feet. If they approach the inner fence, a warning shot. If they jump the inner fence, a kill shot.
Anyone who currently lives in the country knows to announce yourself when you approach your neighbors place. In a SHTF situation anything that slithers at night is going to be far worse than what out there today.
There is no good solution but mentally preparing yourself for what you will or will not do is a good start. It’s said that there are fighters, fillers, and fodder when it comes to combat. That means that some will fight, some are not sure, and some will die as fodder. At lease you can take the time now to decide which you will be.
Agreed, eventually it can come down to a choice to shoot, be shot, or retreat. Agreed, you must make that decision in advance. You decide in advance what the criteria will be. Your layout is intended no only to prevent easy attacks, but also to hide your operation and to make it clear when someone is ready to do you harm.
Difficult question here, all anyone can do is be smart, make sure you have the guy with the rifle in your sights, call out for their intent, if he starts to draw, then there is your answer, if he raises his hands, a totally different scenario, I would never let two Men (unknown) into my home, where there is a young girl and two women with disabilities. We know the mindset of many out there, all good and nice to say, give them food and water, you just told them and any of their friends, you have supplies and if you let them go, they will be back. Hunger will drive people to do terrible things, things they themselves never dream they would do, like killing for food when it is your child dying of hunger.
In a perfect World we could easily say come in and help us out and it all worked out, but we know this is not a perfect World, these two could be scouts for a large group of real animals. If I had to, God willing I will never have to, I would look after mine first, God is not into condemnation, if the act is not of evil intent, he would want us to survive. Not sure how many Christians out there would idly stand by as a group of Animals have their way with their children and Wives, as we see in ME Countries and now spreading into the EU, in all good conscience I could never live with myself for not defending my Wife, Daughter and Grand daughter (7), and in my heart I know God will not judge me or condemn me, I believe I will do all that myself
Praying that none of us ever face anything like this in our lives, but there are people right now dying for food and water and so called men raping boys and girls for the fun of it.
Great analysis on your part and sadly true !
Good points! You need to ask yourself before it happens; how far am I willing to go to protect my family?
I would give them a bucket and explain how t get water from the distillation I,of plant water from the solar process, and add that I am armed and in my history I have out shot number four in the top ten NRA.NUMEROUS. times and if they persist in trying to threaten my family, they will meet their demise, I have vfery little provisions that would help them, and my family comes first. take the help I HAVE SHARED AND LEAVE OR DIE
By the time it took you the ‘explain’ all this to them,…. you are dead!
Don’t try to convince the of your skill level with a gun!! Tell them plainly what your intentions are and kick the grass up around their feet and tell them that’s their only warning and mean it
In a full blown SHTF scenario and say that 2-3 weeks have occurred where nothing works anymore then those so-called scavengers are desperate by then and capable of doing anything to survive, or they wouldn\’t even still be functioning themselves! There will be many of therm not just one or two but dozens and some formed into ruthless \”do anything\” gangs, so if you are a lone ranger you won\’t last very long without the inclusion of friends, neighbors and family members if there also to have developed a solid defense organization with real firepower, water, food and other reserves of supplies. otherwise you should already have left to arrive at a prearranged remote retreat with a team of trusted people (preppers) along with everything to self-sustain long term and defend adequately or again you won\’t survive. So in either situation, \’Bug in or Bug out\’ you have to shoot the SOB\’s, or they\’ll nail you and anyone with you and the more aggressive you can be about it to end such quickly would be preferred! (Then bury the bodies so no disease occurs.) You are in a \”life or death\” survival situation and that is reality so one must act accordingly or they won\’t make it!
No more \”normalcy bias\” mindsets for a new type reality has now occurred!!
You have been watching too many Zombie Apocalypse programs… you cannot justify taking a human life, that has not presented a viable threat to your well being and without warning, or you are the criminal. Now is the time to set your perimeters and personally I worked too long and too hard to earn my garden spot to disguise it as a run down, deserted crap shack. I will survive in-place until someone is willing to pay the price to take me and mine, out! Prepare or Perish!
taking a human life is one thing – correct -however taking a criminal intent on killing or raping your family is quite another – if a person is a real human then they know how to ask and work for what they get! I’m sure Anderson’s mob were at one time human – but one might guess so were Quantril’s – however then they crossed the line they were no longer human but murderers and rapists. We’ve many gangs just like that in almost every urban area of the country – not counting terrorists and those who feel entitled to whatever you have. Prior to the 2012 election – there were those openly and on public transportation indicating how many white people would die! That sounds to me like they’ve a plan – so we better too – and understand that negotiations only aid and abet the enemy – never the victim!
ps. I’ve no intention of shooting anyone – however, I’m trained to take whatever force necessary to protect innocent humans from the predators.
Unfortunately I doubt “scaring him off” would be an option. He would likely be back and with the advantage of surprise, the next time he may not be detected. I still believe the best defense is to make yourself, your shelter and supplies invisible. Avoid the situation in the first place.
In this world there are wolfs, sheep, & sheepdogs, using the parameters set for this scenario, I being a sheepdog and having the necessary equipment and skills required to protect my family and property, have no problem in promptly dispatching any & all wolfs that I believe are a threat to me or my family. I believe that I have the required experience in this field to make an accurate determination of the threat level presented and to respond with the required amount of force, up to and including terminal.
Something I should add to the previous post is that looting used to be a shooting on the spot offense until the world suddenly became politically correct. Now it’s a slap on the wrist and told that’s a no no. Well, I am not PC, not in the least. To me wrong is wrong, right is right, etc, etc and that is that.
I’m NEVER willing to take a risk when it comes to the safety of my family.
Unfortunately, in (the “Peoples Democratic Socialist Republic”of) NY State there is no choice. We are not a “Defend Your Castle” state. Here, you MUST remove yourself from danger and may shoot to defend yourself ONLY if there is absolutely no way to retreat. Even then you will probably be brought up on charges. After all, there’s ALWAYS a way to run away.
In the stated scenario, you will be under Marshall law. The LEOs and courts will need all the help they can get. It will be a totally different situation. There won’t be any place to run to. Just hope there is still a 2nd amendment in play.
Remember, Hurricane Kitrina, Henry! The Louisiana law enforcement were going house to house disarming people and taking their guns to a storage facility, untagged and stacked in piles to rust on a concrete floor. Granpas .44X.70 Winchester, uncle Bobs Sweet 16 Belgium Browning along with thousands of hunting rifles and family defense pistols, gathered up and treated like scrap metal. Marshal Law is the excuse the government will use to disarm the U.S. citizens.
Yeh and you let them have your guns too!!! You keep running, just don’t run to my house!
This is where layers of security become so vital. Signage, soft barriers, light and alarm deterrent, hard barrier, less-than-lethal…and then deadly force.
Regardless of the state of the world around you – don’t rush to lose your humanity…in the end, it may be all you have left, but until then do what you must to survive.
I appreciate your perspective on this issue, but have one concern. These strangers might be just looking around for food, but if they have come into my backyard through locked gates, their intentions are suspect regardless of what they say or if they leave peacefully. Perhaps they came to evaluate your home and security. If so, donating food might fall under the category of “endangering” your family. If you have enough food to share, you probably have a nice stockpile someplace close. They might recruit some friends and come back to liberate more “donations”.
Personally, if my son’s and/or cooperative defenders/fellow neighbors are present…I’d do what law enforcement does now. Take control of the situation first, overcome and remove all weapons and then separate them for questioning to get their stories. Stories are BS with no remorse and hostility, chop them in half using my UTS-15 or KSG with my exotic ammo, flechettes, dragon’s breath, Rhodesian Jungle, home defense and if I expend all 15 or 30 specialty rounds (extremely doubtful!) and the job is not done, bring the Governors. If they are father’s of starving families, I plan to provision a charity box on the edge of my property with a wool blanket, canned food, a few other basics to attract them from my home and still provide them
with some charity. I know that is a weakness and will probably bring everyone from miles looking for handouts…just look at the disgusting fat sobs we have now not contributing and not participating in our system while DEMANDING their stamps, steak and lobster get to them sooner. Beyond Shameful! Like the other posts, I’m still an American, father, husband and Christian above all others and against better judgement, am compelled to help those worthy /legitimately in need. Utterly decimate all evil, prepare and prevail always of course. Back on subject, tough call all around. If you’re sending out strong enough warning signs…prepper’s welcome mats, Indian holes, concertina wire, bearing arms and presenting that you’re prepared to use them the message should be received…go hit a soft, undefended target or face the consequences of your actions. Avoid the pain! When the shtf, the scale shifts and paradigms unfortunately MUST change. As noted in the blog/posts, no 911, no police, no normal respect for personal property, residence, personal space and ultimate violence. Not a good scene, whatever it takes to survive, fight or flight and fight later. Incredibly sad but real fact.
You would have a fight on your hands if you tried to disarm anyone in the situation you describe? Reverse the situation? Are you going to give your only means of defense to strangers who will, or WILL NOT GIVE THEM BACK? TRUST WILL GET YOU KILLED!
Quiet, the dog might hear you or smell you.
Depending on the type of dog, its personality and training,, you may get charged and have to shoot it. Then the battle is on, to get them all I will have to fire my weapons. That might bring others, if there are others, down on me.
How are the men dressed? what kind of hygiene do they look like they have had. Looking at them to see if they are starving or dying of thirst. Does either one look ill, or act out of sorts. If I use my gun I will alert anyone else that they are in trouble and might bring others down on me. Do I have a “QUIET” gun or cross bows loaded and cocked to quietly take them out if needed. Does the one with the rifle, carry it like a military/police person does… ready for trouble or just have it in one hand or on his shoulder like he is on a Sunday stroll?? 40 feet does not leave me much room to stop them if they are trouble, Probably take out the Rifle man, dog, then the other prowler if attacked. If I down them where they stand, cleaning up the mess will be risky if one of their buddies decide to wait it out until I go move the bodies and snipe me.
Why did I let them get so close to me??
How could I be so stupid?
Its starting to get darker
This might end badly…….
AM I MISSING SOMETHING HERE? SO FAR ALL THESE COMMENTS ARE ALL ABOUT YOU, NOT YOUR NEIGHBORHOOD OR COMMUNITY YOU ARE BUILDING TO SURVIVE? IF YOU ARE YOU BY YOUR SELVES YOU ARE ALREADY DEAD!
It is great to have a trustworthy support group, but if there are two guys with a rifle and a dog, on my property, say between my garden and my house, then community doesn’t have a helluva lot to do with it, does it? Your decision is to confront or lay low, until the intruder’s intentions are more in focus. Taking out someone that is lost or just looking for a place to take some small game could be a huge mistake. Confrontation could end badly, for either party. Vigilance may be the better part of valor in this case.
You need permission to hunt on another’s property.
They kill poachers don’t they?
As both a combat veteran and retired law enforcement officer, I have mixed feelings about what is or isn’t the best option in this scenario !
If you can confront anyone from a safe location at a distance and find out what they want or need, then deadly force is not a option “Unless” they won’t go away
when warned. Having signs prepared before the SHTF event, might help warn off people by stating you will use deadly force if the proceed past the point of the posted sign ! The more people you confront face to face, the more dangerous this becomes to you and others. All ways use decent cover to take bullet strikes and defend yourself from when ever possible ! Then pray you make the right decision when necessary.
Most of you are completely missing the real tactical problem.
Military calls it Fix and Flank. The Flankers win the battle
The crippled beggar kid in front of you, who gets you attention, is not the one who snatches your purse or picks your pocket.
The patrol rarely gets the bad guy, but the sniper overwatch gets the bad guys they flush.
The bird is afraid of the dog that flushes them, but it is the hunter’s gun that kills it.
Are you seeing the pattern?
Instead of moralizing, you should be checking you flank or your six.
And re-read you Old Testament!
I’m finding it a little disturbing that so many are saying ‘shoot them, kill them etc….’ The immediate response of shoot, kill etc isn’t what prepping is about. Being prepared and able to use deadly force is needed. However take a moment and think. Suppose the person that comes upon your domain trying to find food for his family didn’t feel quite the same about prepping as you? Suppose he had more trust in the G-ment then you. Does that make him a bad dishonest person? Now suppose that the “invader” is a trained medical person ‘Dr, Paramedic, PA, RN-P’ , just because they think a little differently then you doesn’t make them a bad person. IF you shoot them for just showing up you have just deprived YOUR group of a very important needed skill. And if your mindset is to shoot because they walked into your area YOU are a danger to your group.
It doesn’t make them a bad personal until they try to take what you have, and it will come to that. I pray to God that we will NEVER come to this point, but I am a realist and I’m ready to protect the ones I love. And I’m a woman who isn’t afraid to shoot, if I have too.
Warn then ask. How do you that it isn’t a Doctor or nurse thats been to busy to prepare. I’ll go on short rations to have good medical help close. For your protection and taking them in, you could probably barter their skills for other needed things.
it becomes a simple choice scare them off and they will be prepaired next time and have more with them. At some point even with a full auto you run out of ammo. with my average time to eject and change at one and a half seconds. do you know how far a man can move in that time? will you bet your life you can stop them? you can make only one fatal mistake.
Grampa
I say you challenge them and order them to halt, Then ask them what they are about! If indeed they are a family foraging then they should be offered a place in your community/group with the warning they break rules/laws justice will be swift and final! And they ‘will’ work for the common good of all!
I would hold my weapon close at hand and find out their true intentions and also let them know what mine are as well. If it doesn’t turn south and it is as you say just passing by then so be it. If on the other hand they appear shifty eyes and twitchy then they better talk their maker because this seasoned retired veteran is about to open up.
My question is, what do you do with them after you shoot them. They break in your house to do whatever. ….you kill them. …you now have bodies scattered everywhere, blood ,guts, etc. Your bug in location looks like the final scene in Reservoir Dogs…..now what!
Trust but verify, in the words of Mr. Nixon. If you are not part of a group of like minded and equipped camp that can share resources – then get that way now!
When someone enters your guarded perimeter they are challenged. If they are a bad guy they die. If they state their intentions as peaceful, wanting only to survive,they are put under guard, cared for and watched over, required to contribute as they can.
United we have the resources and power to survive and come out on top and not have to deny life to those in need.
The phrase “Trust but verify” was said by President Ronald Reagan, in reference to the Soviets in the Cold War..
However, after SHTF or TEOTWAWKI wise sheepdogs in charge of providing and defending family and others — will not have the luxury of trusting much.
an interesting group of comments posted here. Obviously, plan as you might you never know what will happen until it happens. The ability to assess personalities and read a persons intent plays a big part in your responses. Turning away all that approach is the goal. If you feel the need to help, you could have a charity poke stashed far away then send them in that direction
If he’s black he won’t get back!
I love how everyone plans to respond to intruders like we live in some kind of civilized society. When things go sideways, there are no rules. If the bad guy is at the scavenging level, he will do whatever is required survive. Once you have made contact and asked that they move on, the only thing you’ve done is tell him you have something he wants. Now he has all the advantages. He knows where you are, he has the time for reconnaissance and now he’ll have the element of surprise, Reality of the situation… Your supplies are now his, and you’re dead meat. And believe me, in a true SHTF situation, not only are you dead meat, but you are probably what’s for dinner.
Good group of thoughts across the spectrum. I would say that there isn’t enough data given…words like looting your house versus scavenging your property are different scenarios. One unarmed (or not visible) versus two, one obviously armed, and with a dog.
The gent who said “layers of defense” was spot on. Just like personal conditions of readiness, a property during a SHTF scenario may be impossible to defend, or easy, given your level of preparation, its location, and severity of the scenario.
For those advising to shoot first and ask questions later, I’d remind you that this very scenario played out during Katrina…and several years later they prosecuted cops who killed people wantonly.
To best answer this scenario, you should a. Know your state laws on self-defense and property. b. Truly understand what situation you are in…i.e. is it a property crime where they are breaking into a car, a house, or attacking you? and c. Use your best defense weapon first: Your brain. Think through it first, pull the trigger as a last resort.
Actually we practiced a similar situation in a field exercise.1. an outer defense line with listening devices (battery power – better if solar will rechg during daylight) which are easily hidden and out of sight overhead. You’ve only to do this on areas of egress an approach. Most criminals will pick the easy way in or out. 2) pre-determined out posts (underground with hatches) and a clear field of fire. 3) no one friendly moves around after late dusk or with some type of ID visually seen – anyone else is the enemy (this worked in Korea/WW2/Vietnam); 4) above various warning signs – which mostly will be ignored; 5) A couple of good dogs or better sound effects which can be tripped by someone sneaking in (in field training exercises we killed a lot of the enemy); 6) have a plan with your friends and neighbors – without a plan you’ve nothing! 7) Have your weapons sighted in – you may even leave old practice targets in certain places; 8) become invisible after dark – no lights – no fire place (i.e. one can smell smoke) – blacken windows where you might use a candle (go outside at night and see where there’s light leakage – if you can see it so can they; and 9) you do what you can do to deter – scaring away is meaningless they’ll go after someone else – so it’s your call – remember no electricity – no phones (walkie talkies – seems to me anyone not living in Atlanta or other city have normal hunting gear such as walkie talkies.
None of us are heroes – but if you’re reading this your a sheepdog (or a predator) – remember in GA we’re all armed and have some abilities – c/ork
Put up a ‘No Trespassing’ sign. If an intruder is on your property… Shoot Them. They’re Gods’ problem now!
When the Blacks were slaves… America was Great! And guess who wants to make America great Again.
Perinoid, you are not only a bigot, you are an idiot, for advertising the fact. The last thing any prepper needs is to inflame racial tensions, as if they aren’t bad enough. We do not improve our chances for survival, by engaging in race-baiting rhetoric. You sound like an uneducated 15 year-old!
Agreed, TX Fred.
Agree completely Fred!
Amen!!
A common “No Trespassing Sign” from a hardware store has ABSOLUTELY no legal merit. A sign from http://www.narlo.com IS a legal sign. However, a stripe of purple paint is legal notification in many states. https://www.snopes.com/purple-paint-no-trespassing/
If they are on your properly marked property, they are trespassing and their intent is to deprive you of property and/or cause harm. As far as I am concerned, they have sealed their own fate. Since my family would be safe, the only thing I would feel after I fired would be recoil.
You can look up your state’s requirements for no trespassing signs online. In WA, you only need to add the legal law number to the bottom of the sign.
There just isn’t enough detail to make a decision based on what you stated.
Were they armed? Did they threaten YOU? What were they doing to ‘pillage’ your house?
One definition: “to strip ruthlessly of money or goods by open violence, as in war; plunder.”
Now, if they were jimmying open a window and there was no obvious appearance of anyone living there, it wouldn’t be ‘pillaging’. That would be called “scavenging”.
If, on the other hand, it was obvious that there were people living there AND they had some weapon handy to attack with once they were inside – THAT would cause me to shoot-to-kill!
I would hope to be wearing IR goggles so that I could see them in the dark to determine their obvious intent.
Now, if they were wearing a holstered pistol or had a rifle laying beside them AND the situation was several days POST SHTF, then it would only be normal for everyone to be armed so I would ‘arrest’ them to try to save a life BUT holding them until “LATER” is NOT in my plans. Either they are okay (in my book) or they would be allowed to leave, OR, they would not need anything else. I will NOT play the democrat game of FEED-THEM-FOREVER and clean up after them.
I will NEVER be a prison guard nor will I support such an action. Either someone is trustworth enough to allow to be free or they will NOT be allowed another chance to harm anyone.
What did George Washington do?
He held a common law court in his yard and then HUNG the poacher after the neighbors all agreed that they had also been stolen from and there was not sign of any change in the culprit.
Being Ret law enforcement , involved in 3 shootouts, 1 of which was from start to finish maybe 8 sec’s, and left me with a 7 inch slice to my right arm, “gun hand” to witt had i not been in reverse mode, and all the while drawing to a combat shooting stance to waist high and firing from the hip 2 shots, i maybe would not be here writing this now. I would have to be in a commanding and controlling situation. Shooting 1st with no provocation would cause myself to not sleep well, no cover/cover, how close are they to me, which way are they facing, what are they armed with, how are they holding the firearms, are there other weapons on them? where are those, whats there demeanor, hows that dog acting…. would dictate communication to these perps, as long as one could stay in control of the 2 and doggie also cooperated, “FREEZE” followed by a command to put the firearms down on the deck and hands in plain site and providing they did as instructed, and again doggie did as he was supposed to do…the next question might be able to be asked. If one got that far with no other things going wrong, you might be able to talk with these folks and go further, if not prior to freeze, i would already have been on target to the one that posed the most threat to myself, with the 2nd and 3rd threat being assess after the 1st was neutralized. After that, this could call go bad well within 10 secs. Remember my rule of thumb, is firstly, what are my ability’s, and how do i perceive or sum up my opponents ability’s. A lot goes into this at the drop of the dime and you will be forced to action in seconds. A mans got to know his ability’s and limitations when going up against un even odds.I also will tell the person re: the bibles current translation of killing is not correct, “murder” is the word left out.Killing has no intention, murder does.Its terrible but this is a fact, in those days the blood will run as high as the horses bridal, and many of us will not survive, family’s will turn on each other in a heart beat, for nothing more than a taste.
Bottom line, whats going to rule out i think, is this, MY HOARD WILL BE BIGGER THAN YOURS….AND MY HOARD HAS MORE BIG STICKS THEN YOU DO….
Been following this – if you’ve the decision to shoot and instead just scare them off – they’ll come back or go after someone else. In addition, unless you’ve water, food, power source – they can set up an ambush to get you in the open. Never been much on scaring them off for they’ll just show up again – i’m too old for 2nd chances. We’re not talking innocent behavior – but criminal intent. There’s good guys/gals and criminals. The gene pool will with less criminals – and if I don’t make it well have been dead a couple of times already.
I agree with the thought of being in control of the situation first and foremost. MOST PEOPLE,have no idea,, what they will do. I would like to think that I would do the right thing, and hope they would too. EVERY ONE is going to be afraid of one or two things. Killing a person will have consequences in one form or another, emotionally, and or formally. Most of the people will try to live as they always have, and keep our humanity. But when being put in a life or death situation, you either will be in one or two different categories, fight or flight. This too will also depend on your family situation. I would like to add that what most people call prepping is how I was raised, ON A FARM. The only things we HAD to buy, if we wanted them, was salt, flour, spices and a few other sustenance,s we could not grow or hunt or raise on our own. People have survived for thousands of years without extermination, and we will continue to do so, with Gods help. Most of the people will do WHAT IS NECESSARY, to protect and survive. That being said, God helps those who help them selves and helps others, if we can. I have enjoyed reading these comments, and have been sadden,d too at some of these comments. Those that have stated, shoot first will not survive. Those that choose to band together as a community will make it through. No one is an island to themselves.
I say shoot them dead do not give them the Opportunity To harm your family or Jeopardize Your familys survival me personally if my children were hungry I would kill you for your food which makes them an enemy and makes them dangerous
Im inclined to agree. The lives of your own family, and your life, take precedence over an anonymous soul.
Don’t let them Leave.
Either shoot them to protect yourself and your loved ones, or keep them detained safely until the crisis stops. Mind you, you have to keep them humanely otherwise you will be in deep shit as well.
I just bought a box of shot gun shells, rubber pellets. I can always slip in more lethal if needed.
With rubber shells I will not hesitate and it will have an effect. I was told in Afghanistan that 80% of the soldiers would not pull the trigger. I know for sure I would with rubber pellets.
I just don’t know about all of this shoot first bs..I would guess that about 50 percent of the shoot first contributors have no military experience.. I n ever pointed a weapon to kill someone until I was inducted into the service and that is when I learned to kill a human being. I will tell all that shooting and killing a man will make a man a very sick looking upon a dead. It amazes me that very few know what become invisible really means .. No calling out no making yourself a target. When the SHTF most will cower and do irrational things and more likely to die .I am not what one would call a preper as I am a country boy that lives in an isolated area I hunt my food with or with out my weapon .. I have learned about food storage and water purification… As for thwarting scavengers it is best to make it look like you already have been looted and burnt out by burning old tires around your property ..make it look like there is nothing left worth looking for Again make yours look like it was pillaged.. Use you imagination to keep it looking more like a bombed and burned out pillaged property .. Only then one can decide to shoot and kill someone or a group moving toward you and yours .. Be prepared to be sick when you finally pull the trigger and kill another human being no matter their intent.
Much good advice, but one was very interesting that I hadn`t thought of, which was to remain concealed and listen to their conversation. They may reveal their bad intentions or brag about what they did to prior victims. I would also recommend one or two members of the group have night vision scopes on their rifles. Anyone approaching silently under the cover of darkness has to be considered a threat.
This thread has been around for a long time – but soylentdean makes a couple good comments – I go back to the post with listening points – one has to already be in the field to remain unseen to overhear – so this would mean you’ve already roving gangs. This would also mean the loss of law enforcement – therefore your options are limited – by knowing what is going on. Pre-assessment of the situation is important – but considering the options are to either shoot or hide? Then firing positions are equally important. Listening points – night vision – trip wires – these are easy – it’ll always be the shooting that’s most difficult – because once you fire the fight is engaged.
Properly mark your property for “No Trespassing” (idiotic sign from Hardware Store doesn’t count. Purple paint stripe on post works for a lot of states.
https://www.snopes.com/purple-paint-no-trespassing/
If they are on my property, which IS properly marked, they ARE trespassing which means their intent is to deprive me of my property or cause harm. Therefore, they have sealed their own fate and will be a permanent part of my land.
All interesting scenarios and thoughts…unfortunate they won’t be tested and analyzed in advance to provide statistics for the rest of us. That being said, I am torn between both philosophies, and my analysis of the situation would be based on the following:
Where am I when I notice them?
Am I in a position to safely take them out if need be?
Am I able to get reinforcements without putting them at risk by so doing?
Am I indoors?
Is it day or night?
Do or did they already see me, and can I be sure?
What will it take for me to get into a defensible posture?
Who or what may I harm or destroy should a firearm battle engage?
Who around me and my defenses might be caught off guard and become a potential victim?
Where are the rest of my family/friends? Are they safe?
And the best part… how much time do I have to analyze all of the above… seconds? minutes?
There is a lot to be said about true “prepping”. We can all hoard supplies, have a plan, etc. But anyone who has served in the military or law enforcement will still train as often as possible to avoid the situations created when danger confronts us. Fight or flight? Tunnel vision; shaking; auditory excluson; rational thought processing; numbness and more.
So before you state “I will shoot first, ask questions later” or “I will determine their intentions”, just remember, that you may not have the time to do either with clear mind or excellent skill, unless you train constantly, and even then when the real thing happens, you might just freeze.
Very few of us have actually killed a human being. And it is easy to say we would, but when push comes to shove, most won’t, or by the time they determine they should, it is too late.
I trained a lot of ego’s. And one thing is for certain, ego does not pull the trigger.
God help us all when SHTF.
I`ve seen in survival catalogs saucer shaped listening devices that claim to hear conversation from extreme distances, which would be a huge advantage in a SHTF scenario. Does anyone have any experiences with them, if so, how well do they work? Replies appreciated.
Not in civilian life. But there is a company, FightFast where I purchased some booby traps. A bang alerts you quicker than anything and may scare them away along with giving you notice. Can be utilized inside or out and around the camp site.
They are armed and on YOUR property. They are now prime targets. As far as the dog goes, if we have the extra food, he an live with us. This also may seem terrible, but as doing a stint in Southeast Asia, if it comes to starving, Rover can become Entre.
I’ve always thought if I came home and there were guys stealing my stuff, for the most part, my stuff isn’t worth a human life! If I see them stealing my car, my car is not worth a human life. If they in any way are threatening my life, yes I will try to shoot first and more accurately! Yet at the same time if a squad comes to take my guns, I want to protect my guns and myself…I would shoot when most “men” would simply give them!
First off if you are prepared and ready as we should be,how did they get to within 40 feet of the house undiscovered/ without notice, first on my list when this goes down are posted century’s, 2nd some type of trip wire with cans or silent alarms, once set off you will quickly find out their intensions quickly and will probably stop dead in there tracks or hit the ground either way you will shortly find out there intensions. As for comments on sharing food I refer back to Noah and the ark , when God closed the door no one was let in and then the flood came. I have been telling friends for a long time to prep but it falls on deaf ears so when they say something like I’m coming to your house I remind them that the door of the ark was not opened once the floods came. We can only pray that it never comes to this, when family asks me what if it never comes I say praise the lord and eat the food spend the money and have fun shooting , but in reality I say that if it does come and the rapture happens , may be that is why we prepped so those left behind might find the lord and be comforted with what we have done.
I’ve been thinking about this . Lets say that there is no law ,no trash pick up. If you live in the burbs, what’s to be done with all these bodies piled up around your house???You can’t bury them, or waste fuel burning them.??????
I live in a high rise, and I worried about that up here, so I bought 2 boxes of large garbage bags, I figure 2 bags to a body, and it will keep juices from despoiling the building!! and hopefully hold the odor down. I bought a couple boxes of rubber gloves to do the job!…My brother was appalled when he learned I bought some body bags!!
And being in a high-rise, there is always the elevator shaft!!!!!!
Wow ! lotta comments. Without over-thinking this, the article posed a question about scaring off or killing a trespasser. only correct answer is “Depends”. Each situation needs to be evaluated, then acted on accordingly. Protecting yourself is one thing, shooting everyone that steps on your lawn is bad medicine….. one can be firm and still send folks down the road, if they don’t move on then it’s on them.
I say use your brain and observe. As Patriot by choice said, You should try to determine what their motives are first. I don’t want to shoot people for doing what anyone would do. Scavenging for food and supplies on the street is not the same as stealing from your basement or a tool shed. Legally you have no right to just shoot them because they were walking around. Nor are you in your right to detain them or cause harm to them or their families by your actions.
Now in regards to the guys with the one gun and a dog…. is it just a guy with a shotgun or hunting rifle or is he dressed up like a soldier? What type of dog do they have and does it come across as a hunting dog, pet, or trained protection dog? What are they saying? Are they searching for stuff, picking anything up? Do they get close to doors or gates?
If there wasn’t a huge risk to myself, I would prefer to make contact and act like I was scavenging too, offer to work with them. Offer them information like where I saw some discarded items. If they act civil they could become allies. And even if you are mistaken, then you “arrest them” temporarily holding them and then telling them you won’t be their victim or executioner, but intend to drive them someplace safe and let them go. Doing so will not make them hate and want to kill you. So you feed them a day or two. You are treating them humanely and keeping them healthy. In the meantime you find their families or where they live, look for photos or clues like ammo for the weapon or dog food. You might verify their story and find a wife and hungry kids and when you return their father and uncle or grandpa, they won’t blame you for being careful as long as you didn’t hurt them or take their stuff or hold them until their families died.
Surely they will plead with you, but that might just help you to find out who they are and to verify their identity and their story and intentions.
Building allies would be better than making EVERYBODY your eventual enemy. And good people will be the last to turn dark as they prefer to stay true to their good nature while people of low moral caliber will be the first to loot, steal and kill.
There are two people in this world. There are Makers and there are Takers. People who are self sufficient and prepare for whatever are typically Makers. Those that have to deal with reality, after it happens, are typically Takers. Our world is filled with an over abundance of Takers. So… when they come to steal or graciously ask for your resources, remember, they are the worst of what DNA has to offer. And the world is packed with piss pour DNA, so converting this DNA to coyote chow is an environmentally proper thing to do. So to be sustainable and green. Turn the buggers into mulch.
Do what the Police do when they say drop your weapon well they should drop their weapon.You are giving them a chance.
Some states dont have a stand your ground law.If their told to drop their weapon and get on the ground with hands and legs spread they better do or shoot to kill.Thats what the cops do and works for them! What else can you do?
I find it funny that all this talk is good and helpful, but when it comes to life or death. you will find your self at the end of a gun to protect all that is yours. No matter what. Good luck when it hits. { I will be ready.} It will be very hard to kill some one that is just looking for some food to eat. Some people will be scared or lost. So be careful how you go about it.
Remember that you will be alone or with others. So be careful of them also. Even the ones in your group. Remember that strange thing will happen to people when thing go wrong… Even your buddy can lose it.
Remember there will be no help from the GOV or FEMA or who ever it might be saying, we are here to help. Be careful, might be a trap…
PS: it won’t be like you think, just wait… it will happen, just when????? Trust in GOD if you don’t know what to do. Good luck in your time of destress…. JOHN 3:16
since the situation is not clearly defined, then you will have to evaluate ALL the information you can, sometimes in a split second, and make the best decision you can at the time. You may regret your decision later but I can almost guarantee you will regret making no decision and leaving control of the situation in the hands of strangers, especially in a SHTF environment..
They are 40 feet away..dog and one person armed….HOW is the armed person holding the weapon… slung on their shoulder?
WHO are they and what do they want? Are they part of a larger group with armed friends ready for an attack? Are they from the Government doing a survey or to inform people in the area?
Perhaps they are people just traveling though trying to get to their family/ies……maybe looking for a meal or some water or maybe just some information and share/trade information.
From the information given there is no reason to automatically go Ballistic and shoot/MURDER them!
Clearly they are out in the open and apparently are waiting for contact and communication…..
Communication with them will decide their intent….giving them a meal and water might be a good trade for information they may have……OR perhaps they are there to look for allies..
Perhaps offer them some fishing line and a couple of fish hooks……
Meanwhile their intent is unknown until communication is made. You may not like them standing there but for them standing in the open says a lot about their intent…they are not sneaking around..
True they might be RECE for a larger group BUT that remains unknown. They might be searching for a lost child or even a Bad Guy…or anything but bad intentions…..
Shooting them just because they are there is nothing but MURDER……Maintain cover and concealment or have others cover you or someone else and go make contact with them…….It is too late for an alarm system to be of use……..
Well,if your dogs need food,then……………………..you know!
After attempting to discern their intent, help if possible and send the less threatening away. The more dangerous ones….?
Two words – Thieves Bacon.
Shtf happens ALL BETS ARE OFF!
1) Post “no trespassing” signs; 2) have a dog for alert purposes and/or benign alarm system; 3) if someone calls out before trespassing, I would assume they need help and would give it if I could; 4) if they came in the night, without calling out, I would shoot them!
I love all the compassion everyone wants to spread around, BUT, once shit goes sideways. Good guys always finish last. Not saying it’s right or wrong, just saying that is what happens.
To me, its very simple….there attitude determines mine…..body language, eye contact, voice and how they move in comparison to an average dude moving along or attempting stealth.
Type of weapon, ammo containers, clothing, chest rig….such as LBV or plate carrier, foot wear, how weapons (s) are carried. All tell the true story. All can be determined in one quick look.
So many factors: if the grid just went down, and you were able to get news and I would always look for people’s intentions based on the news for the local news. Has the federal government declared martial law? Is local law enforcement still intact? National Guard? Federal government intact? If no to all these questions, and double check your findings, then the following will apply:
Regardless, if they are on your property then they have already penetrated your perimeter, and I would issue them a halt order and if they took one more step in, they would be shot on sight. People by nature are opportunists and may or may not know that anyone is at home – even if they know you’re at home, they may test your perimeter for your reaction time and reaction force. In any case, if they came into the perimeter and did not obey the halt order, I would drill one of them and wound the other. Chances are, the man with the rifle is the dominant one and the other man is just following along – so the follower gets it first, and then I talk with the rifle holder. Depending on whether or not the dog ran off, I would pepper spray the dog if I could or dispatch the dog if I could not. The guy still alive would have a lot of questions to answer and when he’s talking – well, he would join his friend. Then I would drag both of their carcasses to the edge of the street and stack them neatly as a warning to the next group of people coming your way. Then I would find out where they came into my perimeter and how? Then secure it as I can. Booby-traps are awesome.
If local, state and/or federal government is still intact, and common law and precedent law are still intact – as well. What to do? Simply wait for them to try to break down the door and then punch a hole through each one of them – repeat until they stop moving. If you can avoid killing the dog, then don’t, but if the dog charges then you will have no choice. Note, if you take this alternate path, you have to wait for them to break into your house otherwise the most you can do is use nondeadly force under Florida statute, Section 776.031/ Section 776.013(4) , (this is what people call the, ” Castle doctrine” or similar).
I would not go outside my house and confront them. Always wait for the bad guys to come to you. And once they’re inside your house the cops or the National Guard can say nothing about it – the bad guys came in force, brought a rifle and the dog to ensure their end result during their clearly, planned home invasion. You were in fear of your life and that of your loved ones. For more information: https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/vdhb.pdf, or, https://thefirearmfirm.com/the-castle-doctrine-in-florida/. Other articles and info are available.
I am very familiar with weapons. I grew up with them. I handle them, and I know how to safely use them. I practice, and am accurate with all of the ones I have. I would strongly hesitate to use a strange one that I was not familiar with, but in a pinch I’d learn real fast!
I have been studying/researching emergency and survival preparation for 11 years, I can read people, and am savvy.
This is neither a pitch-book, nor a resume. It’s an intro to where I stand, and what I believe, for when the SHTF, and for all that we will be facing during the coming times of anarchy in the streets.
There are already several million people that do not take care of themselves. Nothing will change for them afterwards. We support them NOW, why do any of us think there won’t be hordes more when food is scarce, and money is gone? I don’t buy the premise that “well, maybe it’s some father looking for food for his starving children?” He didn’t need a gun and a dog when he visited welfare offices, so why does he feel he needs one to come and visit me? He might not know whose property/land he is violating, but he does know whose property/land it ISN’T… his. Upright and honest people do not lurk in the bushes or shadows. They would walk in a straight line up the drive-way, in full vision by the porchlight, knock on the door, and ask if there is any work available, in exchange for something to eat. He has had just as much time as the rest of us to save as much money, and spend as much time preparing, as the rest of us.
There are still so many that believe we should STILL be supporting them, even after welfare doesn’t exist anymore. How many are sitting around waiting to support me and my family? Even the Bible speaks on the principle that “if you don’t work, you don’t eat.”
I would HATE to ever take a life, even if I was totally justified. Why? Because I would never forget it – what happened, what it looked like, and how it made me feel… BUT, I would not hesitate if someone, anyone, threatened me, my husband, our family, those in our home, or living under our roof. I grew up in a polite and quieter way of life. I grew up feeling safe and protected. I’m old school. I raised my own kids the same way.
People are often guilt-tripped with the “you are your brother’s keeper, story.” And that is true. However it would not be a brother sneaking out to my barn, raiding my garden, or looting my house – that would be a stranger, a thief, a murderer, or an enemy… not a brother. Those that have been diligent to prepare, and sacrifice, and care for the future of their own families are NOT bound to feed and clothe the lazy and self-entitled masses. Stay safe out there, and be smart.
Sounds kinda like “The Grasshopper & Ants” story, eh?
Some are ill-prepared, not because they are lazy, but because they are young and thought the good times would go on, forever.
They lacked foresight and didn’t know, what they didn’t know.
They might be viable help and good soldiers, with leadership & mentoring.
The “Grasshopper & The Ants” is a good childrens story and teaches a good moral story.
However, not every unprepared person is lazy, let alone mean and evil.
Some folks just didn’t think the good times would ever end.
Many just need a mentor and solid leadership to become good soldiers and assets.
There are lots of opinions here. Good and bad. Self defense and war vs being tough guys. No real easy decisions. Advocates for law and advocates for outright murder.
Hope your prepared and have contingency plans. Think about possibilities. How might you really handle those situations? Shooting? Questioning? Passing out free food? Seriously! Honestly I couldn’t lightly take life but I also know Jesus told his followers to buy a sword. It appears to be for protection of self and family.
I have food set back and have motion detectors of my own set up around my place. I have been shooting just about 60 years. I was 16 when I blew my front door to smithereens when a man tried kicking it in to get at his beaten up girlfriend. The 12 ga did its job. Shattered the we door and ran off the idiot. 2nd barrel would have gotten him if he’d persisted. Cops laughed. He avoided me after that.
Will I be passing out free food? Probably not if its a SHTF situation.
‘Thou shalt not murder’, however, killing may-be for survival. So many good answers here. If it were me and my family I think I would be very cautious to not over-react. I would unload their rifle, put them on the ground, and investigate and drill them why they are here. I would ask them if they believe in God and make them pray the ‘Our Father’. If they cannot or dis-God I will know they are the enemy and soul-less. I hate what God hates and that is evil and evil people. No matter what we do, we will be guilty of doing the wrong thing. If they only want to eat, I will feed them, however, I will make them work for it. I heat with firewood and have plenty that needs to be split. I also have plenty of land and shovels and if they will not comply or become combative they will dig their own grave. Being a dad and love children, animals, and life while loving Jesus Christ, I will pray for the wisdom to do what is right. If they are not Christian, all bets are off. I also have a backhoe if needed! I pray I am never put in that situation and being ex-military I will act accordingly. May ‘God’ help us and keep us safe!
Do people respect boundries? If they don’t they won’t respect anything else.
I really don’t know what we’d do, but they’d have to climb over our fence to get in our yard.
I have 2 small dogs. One is doxwawa and weighs about 15 pounds. The other is a pugwawa and probably weighs 7 pounds soaking wet. They are not mean dogs but they are protective. My husband was out shopping one day and I was alone. Someone opened the door put his foot in and started to scream. It was a really terrifying scream. I went to the door and saw someone running as good as he could because his one leg was bleeding. My two little dogs bit the C*** out of the guys leg. I also have a shotgun handy if anybody does get in I will not shoot to kill but they won’t be able to do anything when I am done with him.
Some have mentioned holding people accountable for their actions after some semblance of order has been restored…that would be a neat trick if there’s no witnesses.
Use the Riots; B*M and AntiF@ as examples…They come to your neighborhood and threaten you to leave and sign over your home. What will you do??
Some of you may love the slogan “Back the Blu”. Crisis #2; Carona Con. Did the police protect 1 Amendment and or Article 1 Constitutional rights … Some Sheriffs did. 90% of law enforcement, Enforced illegal Covid rules.
Crisis#3: Stolen election, and the coming face-off of Constitutional / Christians Vs. The Marxist left. We already know you can’t trust law enforcement, Gov’t Law Enforcement has proven to be the East German Stasi. Many Local and State Police have proven to be no better than the Red Army. If you don’t know what the Red Army is, then you are ignorant of history. Where will you stand??
When the strife builds to a face-off…and the secession of Red Constitutional States. You better, All of you have a Web of confident and prepared friends. Because this crisis will not go to waste..and when the rubber hits the road…it will be encamped, kill or be killed
If you decide to shoot – why shoot to KILL? unless you’re certain they have an intent to kill someone. Better to shoot to scare off or wound if necessary. Send a message first, if you can. Will shooting really be in self-defense for your life? Use some wisdom and a prayer for God’s almighty help!
Recruit them.
I have battery sensors to give some notice when someone is approaching. I keep my conversation short, warn them then if they follow I will shoot them with police grade 12 gauge rubber pellet shells. I am more willing to pull the trigger knowing I will not kill them, however I have a second magazine full of buckshot. Go with short conversation so that their friends can not come around you.
“To start with I am a Christian and it would be murder to shoot them without warning,”
Umm under Christianity, it is murder even with a warning.
Their warning is when SHTF.
If they are out scavenging then they already HAVE been warned.
About killing someone for any reason –
Each time you kill, it takes a piece of you.
You have to live forever with that decision.
Best to make sure they ARE trying to loot (which it life threatening by the fact they intend to steal your supplies you need for survival).
Always remain silent for as long as you can.
Racking a shotgun gives away your location.
Besides, it should ALREADY be racked long before a situation arises.
About hunting ammo – that too CAN kill, but at a closer range.
Even if it does not kill, they WILL know they have been shot. The won’t know if the next shot will be lethal or not.
1st round in a shotgun should be simple birdshot.
After that, all bets are off.
When law and order returns at some point, you may have to answer for every shooting and killing.
1st shot shows little to no intent to kill, but just stop.
If you need the extra shots, then the attacker is trying to harm you or your family. And that is a clear case of self defense.
Bible does not condemn KILLING. It condemns MURDER.
It also talks about daytime vs night time and even in your home.
Every situation is different. Living in the city on a quarter acre is different than living in a rural area on 10 acres. Edge of property or hundreds of yards on property? Fence or no fence? I could go on and on. I think some basics are appropriate for every situation. Make a plan for what you will do. Prepare a protected covered area to shoot from. Observation will help you determine what they intend to do. We could come up with more ways to prepare for most situations. I personally do not want to be quick to shoot but, protecting my family and the things I need to provide them is my first priority. If someone intends to harm or steal from me in any situation, I won’t give them a second chance to make that mistake. The coming events will be horrific!
Outside walkie talkies set around property, especially near entrances. Ask their intentions/needs. Respond as required. I’m 63, live alone in boonies of southeast Georgia and have had problems with people showing up at inappropriate hours. Scares the heck out of them…and the black panther and coyotes I have to deal with. Sometimes I use a recorded gunshot. Of course I have had to step out and really shoot on occasion. The walkie talkies are set up in trees and shrubs. Works mostly.
I feel that if they intend no harm, and are hungry, or looking for a meal to feed their kids, they would announce themselves and knock on the door, not just skulk around, and they would not be carrying a weapon. I would have more sympathy for them, and could maybe work out a barter deal for some food. If they are armed, and are sneaking around, they are up to no good and should be shot.
I would warn them that I am armed. I would then tell them to leave. They might just be hungry people savaging for food. I have a stock pile of food and ammo, I do however have to work on water. I have a swimming pool that I need to figure a way to use the water for drinking.
I would warn them that I am armed. I would then tell them to leave. They might just be hungry people savaging for food. I have a stock pile of food and ammo, I do however have to work on water. I have a swimming pool that I need to figure a way to use the water for drinking.
As a person who survived a terrorist attack through the US Mail, and the trials afterward, I can tell you there a people in this world who need killing. As things are worsening every day you will come into contact with these people. Be prepared and make no hesitation. That split second hesitation is all they need to gain the upper hand…