We have seen swaths of Americans without power and basics services for weeks. We have seen the worst from desperate people in these situations.
What we have never witnessed is a nation of 300 million or even a quarter of the nation, 75 million people, falling victim to a compromised electrical grid. Even a partial grid down scenario would, to some degree, affect the flow of information, services and resources all over the nation.
The best source of EMP knowledge available is a report created by a committee of brilliant men and women. They are called the Commission to Assess the Threat to the United States from Electromagnetic Pulse (EMP) Attack.
“Because of the ubiquitous dependence of U.S. society on the electrical power system, its vulnerability to an EMP attack, coupled with the EMP’s particular damage mechanisms, creates the possibility of long-term, catastrophic consequences. The implicit invitation to take advantage of this vulnerability, when coupled with increasing proliferation of nuclear weapons and their delivery systems, is a serious concern. A single EMP attack may seriously degrade or shut down a large part of the electric power grid in the geographic area of EMP exposure effectively instantaneously. There is also a possibility of functional collapse of grids beyond the exposed area, as electrical effects propagate from one region to another.”
Excerpt from the Report of the Commission to Assess the Threat to the United States from Electromagnetic Pulse (EMP) Attack.
We live and operate in a fully connected and dependent system. We will observe the many consequences of an EMP attack on our highly-integrated systems.
Banking and Finance
According to the President’s National Security Telecommunications Advisory Committee (NSTAC):
“The financial services industry has evolved to a point where it would be impossible to operate without the efficiencies of information technology and networks.”
There are trades happening electronically faster than we can even fathom. The scary thing about all of this is that we have created a system that can only go forward. There is no standing still or going back. Banks would go into panic mode and they would be hard pressed to give out any cash money. Cash on hand is not the strong suit of most Americans.
Related: Emergency Bag to Keep in Your Car in Case of an EMP
Petroleum and Natural Gas
Though we are dealing with natural substances born of the earth the systems in place to refine, hold and transport this energy would be affected. Just as we discussed in the section on infrastructure valves, shutoffs and other components would be rendered inoperable. The flow of energy will come to a standstill in the face of an EMP.
Related: How to Store Fuel Long Term
Telecommunications
This powerful report describes telecommunications about as thoroughly as possible.
- The mix of equipment used to initiate and receive voice, data, and video messages (e.g., cell phones and personal computers).
- The associated media (e.g., fiber optics and copper) and equipment (e.g., multiplexers) that transport those messages.
- The equipment that routes the messages between destinations (e.g., Internet Protocol [IP]-based routers).
- The basic and enhanced services offered by communications carriers such as AT&T, Verizon Wireless, and Comcast.
- The supporting monitoring and management systems that identify, mitigate, and repair problems that can impact performance of services.
- The supporting administrative systems for functions such as billing.
This explanation helps you understand just how much of your own life would be effected. Now imagine a world that is inextricably tied by these services. The true effect of the EMP is not merely the loss of electricity but a punishing blow to these systems that all depend on one another.
Related: The Only Form of Communication After T-SHTF
Transportation Infrastructure
Whether we are talking about railroad, trucking, maritime or air travel each will be drastically affected by an EMP. The very GPS and satellite information that drives these modes of transportation could be compromised not to mention our discussion on the energies they need to be fueled.
Of course, without these heavy freight transports food and textile resources would no longer move either. By now you are probably starting to understand just how connected and dependent these systems are.
Water Infrastructure
Now the obvious challenge with water will be the machinery that skims and cleans it as well as the pumps that prevent backflow. I want to present a different concern to the ‘pool’ of issues.
The analysis of our water is done primarily by TOC (totally organic carbon) analyzers that measure pollutants and other disease causing pathogens. Without our ability to analyze the water we would have to create a common and consistent method of measuring water quality. This could result in hundreds of thousands of sick people if not done correctly.
Related: 5 Water Storage Myths
Food Infrastructure
Food processing—cleaning, sorting, packaging, and canning of all kinds of agricultural and meat products—is typically an automated operation, performed on assembly lines by electrically powered machinery.
Like so many of the systems we have created our food system has worked us into a corner. We would have to build new machines and employ hundreds of thousands of people to do the cleaning, sorting, packaging and preserving of all the food required to feed our nation.
That said we are in luck in that most of it grows in the nation. Many countries struggle to feed themselves on domestic product. Still, much of our farming is based on gas powered equipment as well. So, we would be stifled there as well.
Refrigerators and freezers would stop working immediately after an EMP strike and the food will spoil in a matter of days.
Emergency Services
Whether we measure the effectiveness of emergency services by their access to energy, emergency supplies or ability to communicate it’s clear that these services will be insufficient. We have very real deficiencies in our emergency systems in today’s fast paced world. An EMP would place the burden of emergency services on local resources only. In areas like Manhattan there simply wouldn’t be enough to go around.
Space Systems
A high altitude EMP could damage satellites directly. There is some debate on this topic. What is not up for debate is that ground communications to those satellites will be disrupted. That is crucial because most satellites operate unhindered after the initial programming. The ping back of information from the satellite is often what counts. On the ground there would be no way to receive that information or communicate additional programming to those satellites above.
Keeping The Citizenry Informed: Effects On People
According to the Commission:
The human consequences of such a scenario include the social and psychological reactions to a sudden loss of stability in the modern infrastructure over a large area of the country. Loss of connectivity between the government and its populace would only exacerbate the consequences of such a scenario.
Failure of the vast array of systems mentioned would cause wide spread panic and it will be imperative that the public is communicated with. One of the greatest villains to arise following an EMP could be the vacuum of information to the public.
When you read stories about the world being thrust back to the 1800’s an EMP can truly have that effect. However, this is not an apt scenario. Instead we would have to figure out how to run a country like it were the 1800’s while living in the shell of a 21st century world. The hurdles may be far too high to get over.
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Water will be a huge issue and the first priority for our family since we get our water from a well. We plan to use our Emergency Well Tube (www.emergencywelltube.com) in a crisis to maintain our ability to get drinking water from our well.
Michael,
Like you, we are lucky in that we have a good well. We also have a septic system so even buckets of water from our creek can be used for flushing.
I’ll have to look at the well tube; but, as long as we have propane, and we have a lot it if, we can run the generator and the well pump.
In addition we have numerous other non-potable sources of water with equipment and chemicals to make the water potable.
A generator or a well pump won’t work after an EMP. A well bucket/dipping device will.
how many times have you heard: ” why keep all those reference books, you can find anything on line…. ?”
Articles like this make me rethink cleaning off book shelves.
Assuming you have stored all your information on some electronic media device, and assuming that you have satisfactorily safeguarded that media in a faraday cage, and assuming that you have a solar charger that will recharge the batteries powering your electronic media device, how long are those batteries good for? Two years? Three? Five? The batteries in my laptop are good for about three years and then it is new battery time. I guess one could squirrel away replacement batteries and hope that usage played a part in the useful lifetime of a battery as opposed to just deterioration with age. BUT whatever you do, at some point in time your batteries will be dead and not rechargeable. Then what? The 500 books you have stored on your laptop or whatever are lost forever. There was a time between about the 1860s and the end of WWII when paper was high acid paper. You could tell because it got brown and crisp fairly quickly. The Library of Congress has a significant problem with trying to convert that high acid paper so that they can preserve the vast store of books they have written in that time period. Since about the 1960s or perhaps sooner, paper was made with a different process and lasts much longer. Properly cared for, paper has a life in excess of 300 years. All the knowledge you put away on paper will be there long after all the battery devices have faded away. You will be able to pass on the knowledge you have stored to your progeny or to others who need it. I wrap all my reference books in a double layer of heavy duty saran wrap and make sure that the edges are sealed down good and tight. If I need to refer to the book after it is prepared for storage, it is an easy matter to remove the wrap and replace it with new. The plastic wrap seals out moisture and bugs. I suppose a further step would be to seal it in a nitrogen filled sealed bucket, but that adds too much work to store and remove if needed. When one considers how long it takes government to respond to limited emergency situations and how long it takes government to ameliorate the damage from the emergency situation, a significant event such as an EMP attack, a CME event or even just a simple attack on multiple electricity generating facilities will take the government a minimum of six months to decide if something has really happened. Another six months of fingerpointing about who is at fault and then, maybe, they will start to take some action in response to whatever emergency has taken place.
left coast chuck,
Lithium Ion (Li-ion), lithium iron phosphate (LiFePO), and Nickel Metal Hydride (NiMH), when stored charged with no load can last for years on the shelf. Non rechargeable lithium batteries have at least a 10 year shelf life.
The batteries in your laptop have a significant burden on them with hundreds or thousands of discharge, recharge cycles, that do in fact, ”wear them out”, especially if they are not full cycles.
I have, and usage along with storage environment for modern batteries has a lot to do with their longevity.
Most storage media does not require power, although the equipment to read that information does, so you may have to construct your own batteries. Telephone offices use large lead acid batteries, often constructed on site from glass or plastic containers, sheets of lead, and Sulfuric acid (H2 SO4). I’ve been in offices where each 2 volt battery cell was the size of a minivan stood on end.
I have a few old books like that; but, most of my books are newer and I don’t have the problem of the LOC.
Most of my online documents (all stored locally) have also been printed. We have 2 laser printers, a monochrome and a color and printing with either one is fast and inexpensive. A three ring hole punch and a stack of binders is useful here; but, those binders are often free or cheap at thrift stores or back to school sales.
Ours are just stored in sealed plastic containers with silica gel desiccant packs and things seem to be working well with easy access.
This is a case where many entities will be involved. Local power utilities will be fixing their own equipment while the local first responder agencies will try to mitigate the unrest in the population. I work with some of these agencies, and at least on the local level, the people really do care about doing a good job to mitigate the problems and suffering of the persons affected by an event. The problem will be that and EMP event will affect so many people, including those same first responders that our training and tabletop scenario practice may not be adequate, so only those with a 72 hour plus kit will survive with least ill effects.
In short, you will be on your own for quite some time and need to be able to keep yourself sheltered, hydrated, fed, and clean / sanitary.
PB –dave,
I hear that all of the time and do have a substantial number of technical manuals and spec sheets in electronic format, stored on local storage/strong>.
When I find good online reference material I always make some kind of local copy, since even now the network is sometimes unavailable in my rural neighborhood.
I’m a retired engineer (EE) and still have all of my college textbooks on math, physics, and design. They are not used often when I can look something up online; but, they are on the shelves and ready for use, if and when they are needed.
Starfish Prime killed Telstar and a number of other communications satellites with its EMP in the early 1960’s.
Anzennosensei,
While some of the early Telstar communications satellites were damaged during the July 1962 test, it was not EMP that did the damage. In the Starfish Prime nuclear test, most damage was to the satellites’ solar panels while passing through radiation belts created by the explosion. These were also very early satellites before we knew how to harden them against the hard radiation always present in space.
The effects you have listed would occur nearly simultaneously. The only variable would be for backup generators. Once their fuel supply is exhausted, which could range from a few hours to a few days, the systems that rely on backup power would also grind to a halt.
I think you are being overly optimistic regarding our food infrastructure. Without fuel and harvesting equipment, crops would rot in the field. The Commission report projects that up to 90% of the U.S. population could die within the first year following an EMP event that brings down the national power grid.
The mega electric transformers that support the flow of power aren’t even manufactured in the U.S., and it takes more than one year just to build one.
what is the effect of EMP on solar array panels and circuitry. Would be grateful for reference sources
I have read several authoritative articles by electrical engineers who say that the is is not the solar panels, per se, although you could get some minor degradation in output. The real issue is the circuit boards, which could be damaged or rendered useless in an EMP event. Do a search with the words “EMP damage solar panels,” or variations on that. The articles are out there, but I think they are two or three years old.
Tangobravo & Ben,
I’m a retired EE and the consensus is that the panels may not be destroyed; but, could be damaged enough to reduce their efficiency.
The panels of course provide a varying output that is managed by the charge controller to charge the batteries. All interconnections involving wires are points where the EMP energy can get into the system and do damage, so if these interconnecting wires are shielded, it can make the system more robust.
On the other side of the batteries is the inverter, also connected with wires that can act as antennas, so keeping these short and shielded is also good practice. The bottom line is that all of this is theoretical, so you do the best you can afford, cross your fingers, and have spares for everything.
Don’t forget the nuclear power stations running on an alternative fuel source to keep the reactors cool that will run out eventually. Then it will be a nuclear meltdown and additional lives will be lost and areas permanently comtaiminanted.
Don’t take too much comfort in the idea that America grows a lot of food. Much of the ‘food’ we grow is animal feed and humans usually cannot digest the types of grain used for animals or ethanol. Most food in America travels an average of 1500 miles to reach our kitchens. So we need gas to power the farm equipment, petroleum based agricultural chemicals, and gas to ship to market, fuel for heat to process food, and refrigeration or freezers to keep food edible. We may have enough farm land to grow enough food for our nation, but people don’t live where the food is. If you think you could always grow a garden…try it this summer and see how hungry you’d be if that was all you had to eat.
There’s a novel built on this scenario. Descent to anarchy and Dark Age fortress settlements. It’s a cautionary book, not violence porn.
Could we have the title of the book and the author. Just tried to look it up, but no success. Thanks
The name of the book is ‘One Second After’ – pretty good read. Will make you think.
And the sequel: “One Year After” takes up where that left off.
Great books by William R. Forstchen
Definitely make you think.
That 90% mortality rate is not so far fetched when you think of ALL the things you lose…and the lengths you’d have to go to just to feed yourself/family.
“Day of Wrath” also by Wm R. Fortschen is a novelette that takes place in a modern community and deals with a terrorist attack on a school.
A great, quick read.
PrepperGigi,
It is a good read; but, the author, William R. Forstchen, a Professor of History and Faculty Fellow at Montreat College, in Montreat, North Carolina, gets a lot of the technical details really wrong.
The story line is compelling and presents what I think is a realistic social scenario, presenting the interaction of people, some who pass from disease, and the handling of the masses passing through the area.
They do however make quite a few mistakes no real prepper would make, like leaving many cars lined up on the local freeway, without salvaging batteries, alternators / generators, and other components that would be undamaged.
“Because of the ubiquitous dependence of U.S. society on the electrical power system, its vulnerability to an EMP attack..blah, blah, blah..”
I’m bettin’ folks will find Americans are a LOT less dependent on grid power than is generally assumed. But, Y’all can kiss my ass if you don’t believe me.
A comment like this does little to add to intelligent discussion. People come to this site to get information about surviving catastrophic events. None of us is an expert in what will happen in the event of a large CME event, an EMP attack which will be designed to inflict maximum damage or a standard attack on our grid system which is very vulnerable to such. While it may be your opinion that we are not vulnerable to such events, that is fine and you are certainly entitled to it. Perhaps many U.S. citizens are much more self-sufficient than is generally believed and it would be our hope that your views are correct. Yet you offer no evidence to support your opinion, if it is valid, and end your post with a vulgarity that adds nothing to the discussion. If you are not going to post factual information, please refrain from posting at all.
As an interesting aside, I am currently reading a book about the Crusades and sometime in the 11th century there was an apparent CME event. The crusaders reported seeing aurora borealis as far south as south of Antioch in what is, I believe, current day Syria. Of course, then the internet was mainly trumpets and drums for those close by and a fast horseback messenger for those somewhat further away, so it was merely, according to the crusaders, a sign from God that they were on the right path. No other indication of the strength of the CME event other than how far south it was seen. It would appear to me, not being a solar scientist, that would make it somewhere on the order of the Carrington event which blew out telegraph facilities all over the northern hemisphere. I doubt that there were any telegraph facilities in the southern hemisphere at that time, but I could be in error.
So very pleased with your comments, again. Always love to see you on the blog.
left coast chuck,
That book sounds like an interesting read. Can you give us the details?
Re: Keeping people informed. There is an active program to make sure that there are broadcast stations still viable post-EMP. Have a hand crank/solar powered radio (or 2 or 3) shielded and in your preps. Most of these stations are AM, but there are a few FM’s scattered around.
Rod,
There are plans in place; but, I’m not sure how well the infrastructure has been kept up.
There are however large organized groups of trained communicators within the amateur radio (ham radio) community, so have equipment that can receive their communications could also be advantageous.
We generally use FM & sideband, so make sure your radio can tune those modes. I highly recommend the Kaito Voyager to meet this need.
The Amish live without this stuff every day. The beginning, shuffling people around, will be tough, but Americans are very resourceful. I am certainly not above harvesting at local farms in return for food. Now if it happened in winter, that might be a real problem (except in AZ and SoCal).
Jan Bo,
While you are correct that crops are grown in southern and central Arizona year-round, the farmers still rely on fuel for tractors, electricity to pump water, fertilizers that they cannot store, and seed that they must purchase from sources that are not nearby. Transportation of harvested crops (in refrigerated tractor-trailers) is essential.
I drive through many square miles of agricultural fields several times a week on the 303 Loop, heading into Phoenix. There are several hundred thousand people much closer these fields than you probably are, assuming that you could get to these farm fields on foot in the first place.
Without fuel, these fields cannot be cultivated. Without electricity or fuel for generators, the crops cannot be watered. Without harvesting combines and transportation, the crops cannot be moved to processing facilities for transshipment.
Assuming that any crop survives long enough to be harvested, you would be fortunate if it was sweet corn; but you are just a likely to end up with a supply of radishes as payment.
My guess is that the farmers will have hired armed watchmen long before you reach their fields.
You are only partially right about the Amish, most now use modern farm equipment, which will also be affected, but you are right in the non-use of electricity. A lot could be learned from them
EMP is a threat that many people believe is just a prepper sweet dream and not something that could actually happen. The fact is it’s not only possible, but it’s actually likely should anyone ever get serious about taking the US down. If we ever get past saber rattling with Russia, the threat of us getting hit with an EMP is going to skyrocket.
EMP devices, relatively speaking, are rather cheap to make which allows the lower tier bad actors this ability as well as the larger nations. The threat is real and approaching probability as opposed to possibility.
Samo Samo. Wise up ALL. The SHTF has hit the fan.
In case anybody wondered if I had gone off track or something, the above post was not by Left Coast Chuck
1800’s? No way. We do not have the tools and skills to live an 1800 lifestyle. Try Mad Max post apocalyptic scavenger life! the living will envy the dead!
I have to agree, Rick. I haven’t thrown a saddle on a horse in over fifty years. My wife doesn’t know how to spin yarn and anyway, I sure am a little short on how to shear a sheep. Yeah, I got it. You hold the sheep down and give them a buzz cut. I feel confident it is just a little more complicated than that.
I generally know how milk is obtained from a cow, but as to the actual technique, I am clueless. I would like to see a few more knowledgable articles on this site about the day in and day out mechanics of raising chickens, rabbits, goats, pigs. The sum totality of what I know about raising any of these common animals can be written easily on a 3″ x 3″ post it note. In the 1800s everybody knew how to raise any of those animals. Even 13 year olds knew more about the subject than I.
left coast chuck,
Around here most of us raise some kind of animals, although we are down to a single horse and a small flock of chickens; however, many of our kids including mine raised goats, rabbits, steers, and other livestock, mostly as 4H projects.
If you live in a rural community as we do, there is expertise there and if you are willing to learn, people will put you to work helping them for the experiences and often a share of the produce.
One thing having livestock means is that there is no procrastinating, since these are living creatures and don’t care if you are tired or the weather is cold or wet or windy. You may be tired and cold; but, you still have to bundle up and trudge out to do chores.
I can still milk a goat or a cow; but, that would only be enough for perhaps 2 families.
The urban people would be the ones in deep S if TSHTF from an EMP or numerous other life changing events were to occur. Out here we also have freedom others don’t have or know they are missing. That is in part why we live rural.
Rick,
You I suspect are speaking for yourself.
Here in our rural community with a large Amish population, many of us could live quite well, with the new life being only an inconvenience, and a bit more work
Urban people would probably be in the worst shape, since many of their support systems would no longer be viable.
All the knowledge needed for survival; farming, food processing/preserving, animal care, etc… is in any library. Probably not the first thing the gov. will be protecting.
True, DJ, however, trying to cram a lifetime of acquired knowledge into the time available is a daunting task. I am slowly acquiring a library of books pertaining to topics of which I have little knowledge, but animal husbandry is more than a matter of studying how to milk a cow from a textbook. Sure, I have read how one goes about it. I have watched videos and I think I have most of it down. but there is so much more than just the mechanical part of milking a goat, cow, camel or any other animal mankind has used to obtain milk and that so much more is where lifetime experience comes into play. In the 18th century, I am sure most 13 year olds knew how to milk a cow and all the sundry little tidbits of knowledge that come from a couple of years of hands on.
eft coast chuck,
Your analysis of book learning is spot on.
Evidently the prepping conditions are like real estate, where ”Location, Location, Location” are the watch words, because in our location, many 21st century 13 year olds are members of 4H & FFA and can manage cattle and other livestock, and this doesn’t even count the Amish among us.
Libraries and YouTube are great resources; but, nothing beats hand on, to ovtain real skill.
DJ,
A library is several steps away from knowing how to do something.
Libraries (or the entire internet) contain no knowledge, just information.
When you absorb that information, you now have knowledge; but, knowledge is not skill.
Skill then happens by doing the steps iver and over until you can do them, often without thinking.
An analogy would be the 16 year old who has read the driver education manual, passed the test and can now hit the road on their own. Their skill level does not come close to the driver who has been driving for decades.
Planting a garden, milking a goat or cow is a similar task that can be learned; but, will take practice to do it efficiently, and in the mean time, you could be starving.
It was a couple of years ago. That a cruise line ship was dead in the water. I am a retired Cheif Engineer. These are powered by electrical motors. You have generators for each motor, just like locomotives. You have back up generators for each motor, for service purposes. Then you have at least 2 generators for power to the ship for all your other electrical needs. On the older ones you had a third, that had a separate fuel supply. Just in case you got a load of bad fuel. This ship had to be towed in. No explanation was given why the ship couldn’t even keep the toilets working. It had lost all power. These Generators have separate wiring in case of over loads. There is only one thing that can kill at least 7 generators, where a Cheif Engineer can’t get power back online. Especially after a week. Every electrical system had to be fried. We carried spare parts. So even the spare parts had to be fried. I think someone was testing an EMP weapon. That’s the only logical explanation for them to be without any power for almost 2 weeks I believe. They were discovered & towed in. But you never heard how this could have happened.
BWC,
I find it hard to understand how an EMP device could affect a single ship and not affect other infrastructure around it for a large area,
I think that ship and others that have had similar; but, not as drastic problems, is a result of poor maintenance due to small maintenance budgets.
We have similarly had budget airlines go out of business when they offer fares and packages with too small margins in an effort to attract customers.
One thing to consider regarding our post-EMP water infrastructure, is that our waste water treatment facilities will no longer be operational once their generators run out of fuel, a few days after the EMP.
My point is that if your home is on a sewage conveyance system, the sewage is going to start backing up into the sewer mains and into homes.
Homes in low lying areas of communities will be the first to have sewage coming up their toilets, tubs, showers, sinks, etc. These low lying areas rely on sewage lifting (pump) stations to convey the sewage to higher elevations, where it can then flow by gravity to the waste water treatment plant.
This problem will release toxic and explosive gases like hydrogen sulfide and methane into homes, buildings businesses, and overflowing sewer manholes. Disease will also be rampant in urban areas because of this, as well as fire and explosions.
This is yet another reason to get out of the cities and into the country. If you can, get a home on some acreage with its own septic system.
thenatureboyricf
Your points on the end to end, water supply to waste removal were spot on.
It sure is. We live on 8 acres, with a well, septic, and a lazy creek running through it. Most of our neighbors are similarly situated.
I worked for several years as a grocery manager at Walmart. They have only a few days of food in them and very little in the back. They are dependent on multiple trucks a day to restock grocery daily. All this runs on gas. Gas is pumped by power. No Power, no gas, no trucks, no groceries. Starvation will be rampant. People will riot and kill for food. At that point it is too late to plant gardens and grow your food. Our large factory farms will not be able to operate. No fuel for plowing, planting, harvesting or shipping. You will be on your own. This event will happen someday and it will be without warning. By then it will be too late. You will be competing with millions of starving, well armed, desperate people for the few resources available. Good Luck. Your only option is to be prepared now. You must have adequate food and supplies to last until the bulk of people have died and the situation stabilizes. Books on skills are a good idea but you need to practice them now. Learning how to organically garden when you are desperate is a mistake. Learn now. Even with a couple years food, at some point you will have to produce food. The power will not come up, anytime in the near future if ever in our lifetime. How is a destroyed society going to replace what we had, when we don’t have any power to produce it. The government will collapse, don’t count on them but do count on strong men to arise in local areas. A lot of people are worried about their phones in these comments, why? The systems that make them work will be toast, the internet too. Someone mentioned the Amish. You should visit their communities and study how they live, because that is the future at somepoint.
Actually I don’t believe the Amish will be as well off as I am, where I live in central KY I have a lot of Amish neighbors, they use a lot of commercial chemicals on their gardens and fields, they don’t use heirloom seeds in their gardens, they make their own cloths but go to Walmart to buy material and a lot depend on a ride from us to get there they don’t keep much as far as self protection, in a lot of ways I’ll be better off then them, that’s where the community comes in we need each other.